Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
The concept of Perch is simple yet profound. It represents more than just a moment of stillness; it embodies a philosophy of life. Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent, Harm. It’s a call to rise above the noise and seek higher ground to gain a clearer view of the world around us. When we Perch, we create space to see the bigger picture, understand different perspectives, and make decisions that reflect our highest values.
Navigating complexities with empathy is one of the most significant challenges we face today, and it is the ability to understand and empathize with those who hold different views. Our experiences and backgrounds deeply influence our beliefs and the environments we are exposed to. Where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do. When we Perch, we acknowledge this truth and strive to see the world through the lens of others.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
An uncensored HR conversation with The HR Lady Wendy Sellers Part 1
Meet The HR Lady, Wendy Sellers, an author, HR consultant, and management trainer. Join us as she disrupts conventional HR wisdom with insights from her books 'Suck it Up, Buttercup: Be a Leader People Will Follow' and 'The Asshole Whisperer: How to deal with crappy leaders and jerks at work.' Dive into Wendy's unconventional HR journey for a unique, enriched conversation that challenges norms. Buckle up, buttercup; this isn’t your typical HR conversation.
For more on Wendy Sellers, please reach out to her: https://thehrlady.com/
Let's all keep searching to expand our view!
Good day, good day Perch people. This will air at the first of the year, so this is 2024. So, just for a quick recap, at the end of the year Perch is giving you, we had a series that we did on like mental health, our physical and mental health, and we had a special guest on. And our last segment to wrap up the year, we had Genevieve Peturo on and we focused on finding our purpose, and so those were the steps for us to start the new year off fresh, now that we found our purpose. We've worked on our mental health. Maybe HR has come into focus. Maybe now that we found our purpose, like hey, where do I start? So we have a guest like no other.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited to bring this person out. Her name is Wendy Sellers and before I get into this, I'm going to put a quick disclaimer up. So we're going to talk. This is adult HR conversations. We have the HR lady in the house, so if any of the language will bother you, I'm just giving you a warning. I just have to go through some of the material and it may be a little explicit. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Wendy Sellers, welcome to Perch podcast. And before I get that go there. I need to just tell you who she is Wendy Sellers is a trainer, an HR consultant and an author. I love this title of your book. I love everything that you do, but I had. You gave me great pause when I read this, and this is something Toby says all the time suck it up, buttercup. Be the leader, people will follow. So we're getting to that one and the next one classic, the asshole whisperer. I'm just going to leave it right there. I'm going to let you explain that one and another series I followed that you did Fuck around and find out, I don't.
Speaker 2:So here it is.
Speaker 1:Before I have a-.
Speaker 2:Frankly, I'm offended. I need to find my safe space.
Speaker 3:You know I drink your water. Okay, Suck it up.
Speaker 1:Buttercup, there we go Just in time. But before we get into all these titles, one thing I do want to talk about too, and you need to follow, wendy, and we'll have our information, but in part, what really stood out to me in your media the first time when I saw suck it up, buttercup, the animation you did on the three things we should the three things we wish leaders knew, and we'll get into that as well. I just want to run through the three things and I'll kick it to you. And in the animation you said number one to all the leaders your personality annoys people. Number two, which I have used, this one since I was a kid and I'm not going to lie, a teenager. I discovered this Common sense is not common. And number three your communication sucks. So, wendy, first and foremost, again I say welcome, welcome, welcome. But my question is who lets you in the HR department?
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 3:Somebody who must have been desperate at the time. Right, right, right, right, yeah. So hi everybody. Wendy Sellers, the HR lady I'm the non-traditional HR lady and my career didn't start traditionally. I actually went to college for healthcare administration and I got two degrees in healthcare administration, a master's, and then I started going into that route and I was like, nah, there's too many rules here and I'm better at breaking rules than following them.
Speaker 1:So it sounds familiar, but clearly you have a great bedside manner.
Speaker 3:You know it was really the healthcare administration part. It moved too slow. That's really what it was. It just moved too slow, a lot of bureaucracy and I'm like, no, I want to fix people's problems now, not six months from now or six years from now. So I ended up in retail management while I was going to college for healthcare administration. That taught me a lot about learning you know how to deal with not only customers but employees, and I had a great training program in retail management. I ended up in an elevator when I moved to Florida I randomly threw a dart at a map and moved to Florida, was going through some personal stuff.
Speaker 1:Wait, wait, wait. You threw a dart at a map and landed Florida.
Speaker 2:What kind of aim is that, Obviously, the trajectory was I was going to aim for the east coast.
Speaker 3:You know, I put a map on a bed. I was in Pennsylvania and I put a map on a bed and I kind of aimed for the east coast. I was like I'm moving to Florida. My friends and family are like you're crazy. I'm like, yeah, that's about it.
Speaker 1:Well you had to be aiming low to hit Florida.
Speaker 3:I'm just from yeah or I'm not, a good dart thrower and I could confirm that I am not a good dart thrower. So, anyways, I picked up and moved and was in an elevator with a resume you know when you actually had to bring resumes to interviews and a woman leaned over and said hey, I'm a recruiter or staffing agency and I know somebody who's looking. Can you do HR? Yeah, sure, I figured it out. And that's basically how I started my HR career.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for that explanation. Sorry, I don't know where my voice went. One thing I well. Thank you, you're so thoughtful. I wish it was sponsored by Aquafina, by the way.
Speaker 2:There we go. I'm working on Bop. I spent well. We'll take Aquafina too.
Speaker 1:One thing that I do, my focus and intention for this show is to talk about HR and literally, like the evolution of HR. You know where we've been and where do you see HR going. So hopefully, by the end of this podcast, we can have some insight into your thoughts and opinion of where we are and where we're going. Sure. So, from that, from my first question to you is what do you see in an HR space? As far as do you? Because I see, in my opinion, a shift, definitely a shift, and it seems like in the evolution of HR, there was a big change for corporations to get in a DEI space, especially around a pandemic, and now it seems like, for whatever reason, it's been shifted again. So do you see some similar things? What do you see?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there is definitely a lot of shift towards actually accepting DEI diversity, equity, inclusion and then these people called politicians got involved and that's why it's trying to shift back to not giving a shit. But most HR people and business managers and owners, they're still doing it. They're just doing it on the down low because, you know, god forbid, it ends up in the news that we care about people and we want to make sure that we have a diverse and inclusive and eventually and we'll probably never get there an equitable organization. So I think a lot of companies are still doing it. They're just not doing it in the you know, oh, here's the balloons and everything. But let's face it, many companies who are saying, yes, we're diverse and inclusive, it was just all talk anyways, they really weren't. You know, they were just doing it to get the attention. And you know, for the recruiting side, it internal and then when you go in and survey their staff or just talk to any human on their team, they're like, no, there's no diversity here, there's no inclusion here, or there's diversity meaning we've hired people that look different but we're not really including them in anything, we're not helping them, you know, to the equity part. So I do foresee that 2024, it's a, you know, it's a voting year, it's an election year, and there's definitely a lot of companies that are like pulling back on the media side. But if they don't do it, they're not going to have employees. That's all there is to it.
Speaker 3:My opinion, and most of my peers' opinions, are that employees are still in charge. You know, the employees were in charge during the pandemic, saying pay me more, give me more benefits, give me more equity, give me more inclusion, train me or I'm going to go somewhere else. And sure, large companies you'll see in the news, large, large companies that overhired because they were greedy, they didn't really care about the people, they cared about the revenue and the profit. They overhired. And so now they're doing some layoffs, right, right. So everybody's going, oh, everyone's going, to do layoffs. No way, everybody that I know, everyone, every client that I know, every company that I know they can't find people and they can't keep people. So, while they may have been, many companies are just learning to meet their goals with less employees or not as many as they wish. They're still looking for people. So the the tail out there in the news that, oh, it's coming back to the companies are in charge now. No, that's not happening.
Speaker 2:Hey, a token conservative over here. Ok, so, archvillain, I'd like you to define the word equity for me.
Speaker 3:Sure. So equity is something that is almost impossible to thank you.
Speaker 2:Good start.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it really is. It's something that is very difficult to get to. So equity is where two human beings, regardless of their age, ability, disability, gender orientation, skin color you name it have the same opportunities in life.
Speaker 2:OK, same opportunity. Ok, perfect Right, same opportunities.
Speaker 3:It really is because then, if you have the same opportunities you have food on the table when you're two years old, you have preschool coming up, you have, you know, tutors, babysitters, whatever it might be safety in your neighborhood. Now you have the same opportunity and then it's up to you. Yeah, I'm great with opportunity.
Speaker 2:There seems to be a misnomer sometimes where people believe equity is equality of outcome, and I have a very strong problem with that. I mean I mean everybody the same starting point is fantastic, but for somebody to come back later and meow that it wasn't fair and that's not equal to me is just, you know, is just ridiculous, because everybody should have the same opportunity. What you do with it, different story.
Speaker 1:So so now my question is to Toby. So, as far as what, what bothers you about that statement?
Speaker 2:Because people, people are very quick to whine about that's not fair. Why did he get that night, didn't? Or how come he has that night? I don't have that and the answer is because you started with the same opportunity. Other people excel at certain things and other people don't. If you and I started the same position and I work very hard and you show up when the thought hits you and I get my work done and I excel, and you show up again and you're four minutes when the thought hits you and then I get a 12% pay increase and you get a three and you go whine to the boss that that's not fair. I got a problem with that. So so we both started in the same place. We both did different, different amount of work and effort with it.
Speaker 1:And here is the here in Liza rub with the equity, and I think, wendy, you said it well, because that's part of the judgment. The judgment is we are on the same playing field. So it's the. It's the equivalent of make the playing field a football field. You and I both start from a 50 yard line and when you start on a 50 yard line, you started a rant and I started with a defensive lineman on my back.
Speaker 2:Well, but that's not an equality of opportunity, then it's a difference.
Speaker 1:But, but, but I let me make all right. Can I make my point? Thank you. Thank you Because it's the visibility and this, this is the rub, because corporations and organizations, people think, because you see me and I see you and we work for the same corporation and may have the same, we have the same experiences. It's fair and equal. And it took me three times. It was my journey to get there was three times harder than yours. I had to prove and excel and go three times beyond and still to be underpaid.
Speaker 1:And they were like well, well, what's your issue? Because on paper it looks equal and so the the, the issue with people understanding what equity is and and understanding it because I, I, the fairness word drives me crazy, because it's, it's objective. What, what is fair? You know, but we get so impassioned by our beliefs and our you know where. It's not about diversity, equity inclusion. And for me, my bigger issue, my bigger, my biggest issue with corporate America when it comes down to DEI, diversity, equity inclusion is it goes against business principles. Meaning the fact that you have to be sold on diversity, equity inclusion boggles my mind because in business, business is data driven. Corporations study data. That's how they make the decisions. That's how they decide. You know what they're going to invest in and the data has been clear from day one on what happens with corporations when they invest in people and diverse thoughts and minds and and ideas and people that bring different. It works. It works. Nowhere in corporate America is this a discussion when the data is clear, except in the very diversity equity inclusion.
Speaker 2:The only thing I would say and I want to hear Wendy's opinion on this is I believe that equality of outcome demotivates your rock stars. If I work my ass off, I guess this is going to be an R rated podcast, so I work my ass off.
Speaker 3:Usually is when I'm involved.
Speaker 2:Hey, there you go. You're my kind of people. So you know I work my ass off and I work like crazy and you know I get a 5% raise and the guy who's a rock shows up and he gets a 4.8% raise. I'm telling you I'm looking for somewhere else to work. So to me, equity of outcome demotivates your rock stars.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the people that made that decision to give that that loser a 4.8% raise should be fired.
Speaker 2:Yep, you know that's it, but but under the guys of being fair under the guys, of being equitable, that's what I'm saying is that we can start in the same place and I don't disagree with anything you just said, trey but we start in the same place. But if I show up and the other person doesn't, unless you want to demotivate your entire team, you better start separating the wheat from the chaff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you throw, throw out the threat, you know, do everything you can to help that person who is not doing well, to do better, and if they aren't you know getting in line with everyone else then show them the door. There's a lot of companies that are hiring, so letting somebody go to find their, their better, their better truth, their better opportunity Really shouldn't be an issue today, but so many companies are afraid of getting sued or, oh, I'd rather just have this um, not not great performing employee in this seat than no one and it's like no, no man. This is why all your other employees are pissed off, because they're picking up the slack, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The loser over here, absolutely, absolutely. You know we we have. I work at the restaurant industry. We have an expression that says every now and then it's okay to promote one of your employees to a customer. You know it's just like get them the hell out of here. I mean, they're just because they do this.
Speaker 3:Yeah especially in this, in this market market right now you know 2024, there's enough jobs for everybody. Again, like I mentioned in, the beginning.
Speaker 3:forget all the things you're seeing in the news. That's all just for ratings and you know drama and to get us to not really pay attention to what's going on elsewhere. Um, going back though what? What we were talking about? You know the data you were talking about. Companies use data. I wish they did. Big companies do, companies do, but let me clarify Companies do, but majority of our companies in the United States are small businesses.
Speaker 3:They don't even know how to use an Excel sheet, never mind how to use data, so they're just winging it, and that's where they get in trouble.
Speaker 1:And so I appreciate the call. I truly do so. Let me clarify that companies quote data. They quote it, so they they use it in a conversational tone. They use it as a posture to say I am in the know, and that's even on a small business side. Some of them they'll read, whatever industry they're in, the local trends and papers and they'll quote it. But making it applicable to their business is is another conversation and how it shows up with them, the data that they, the data that they use, is there is their quick books, right, and that's it.
Speaker 3:And then they go oh, we lost money. We're going to blame you instead of going. Oh, maybe it's the C suite, that's the problem. He'll figure it was that on point.
Speaker 2:So, speaking of all point, I have a segue.
Speaker 1:So, with the conversation we're having about D I and these hard conversations and I don't even call them hard conversations I'm going to segue into suck it up buttercup. How does that that mantra, your book tie into? And how does that fit in corporate America when we are PC, when what we're PC as far as our posture inside our corporations is another conversation. So we're, how do you tie that suck it up buttercup? Is that directed at the employers? Is that at the employees, or is it suck it up a buttercup across the board? It's 100% directed at the crappy leader.
Speaker 3:I wrote the. I wrote suck it up buttercup because I knew people that have a dominant and direct personality, like myself say things like suck it up buttercup. And now when they open my book and if they actually read it, they go, oh crap, I'm the problem. And that's what I wanted them to do is read it and just say, hey, you might have a leader title, but you're not. You may not be a leader. And when you're pointing fingers at the employees and blaming other people, you know you really need to grab that mirror and say, how am I part of the problem here? So the biggest thing I already said about like personality styles when I first started doing research and getting educated on personality styles myself using the disc model, I was like, oh my God, I am the problem. You know, I'm a dominant D personality.
Speaker 1:I'm a.
Speaker 3:D. Yeah, If you're a D, we don't care that. You pointed out on that. You, you, you say to us hey, you're, you're the dirt. All the other personalities.
Speaker 1:But I'm a D, I'm a D, I'm a D.
Speaker 3:I'm solid D, solid D.
Speaker 2:So question, and this may be relevant to that or not, but you know I started in a generation. May not look like it, I know it looked like I'm 21, but I actually just turned 60 last year and when I started there was an expectation that work was was just that. It was another four letter word. And you know there were some things you didn't like. And you know, the guy in the corner snores when he sleeps during the day and this guy over here smacks his lips when he's having his soda or whatever, and you just kind of I'll use your term just you just kind of suck it up. And now there's an expect, there's a thought in my mind that every single little thing goes to HR. You know, I don't like that. He's doing that. I don't like these. I mean, has that really changed? Or is that just a perception that that this generation is not as accepting of other people and their let's call them their foibles?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So let's let's answer a few things there. This generation, which one Tell me Millennials? Yeah, so I. I. I see the problem with baby boomers, I see the problem with Gen X, I see the problem with millennials, I see the problem with Gen Z. The thing is, we always like to make fun of and blame the youngest generation. So I always tell millennials don't worry, z's coming, we're going to pick on them soon. But you know, I used to do a lot of training on generations and I had to stop a little bit because I was becoming so protective of millennials, even though I'm not a millennial, and I was really like, okay, I need to, I'm showing bias here.
Speaker 3:So the bottom line is people are different, regardless of their age or skin color, their gender, gender orientation, where they grew up. People are different and as a manager, you have to get to know your people and HR. If you're taking on all the managers responsibilities, then you're the problem and I don't want to hear you complaining that you're overworked. We need to train our managers, end of story. That is. My goal for 2024 is to train every manager that's out there. We promote these people and say, hey, you're really good at this job over here. Now I'm going to give you a team to run, and that job too. And, by the way, we're not going to give you any training. So you seem good?
Speaker 2:Okay, bye, and then we wonder why they walk out the door. My last quick follow up, though, that is I'm a firm believer that you know you have the right to be you as long as you don't interfere with other people's lives. So if you want to live a life and wear women's clothing, hey, have at it. You know you're not affecting my ability to live my life. So as we move that thought, that philosophy, to the work you know work environment if somebody is constantly going to HR and saying, sure, you should did this she wore a pair of shoes that I found offensive and Bobby wore a T-shirt that I found offensive At what point you just kind of say, hey, look, you know they're entitled to do what they feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:Somebody shows up with a Trump MAGA hat and the person says I don't feel safe because this person's a MAGA craze lunatic. I mean, at what point you just kind of say, look, you vote every day by walking in the door. You can either come to work and recognize that they have their rights to do what they want, as long as it doesn't impose on you, but you can't change what they are.
Speaker 3:Right. So this is where company values and I don't know policies come into place. And again, training your managers how to handle this conversation. Is political gear allowed in your workplace? If it is, then fine, you go wear your thing over there and they wear their things, and if you guys start fighting, you're both fired, you know a little bit, a little bit slower than that. Folks, Don't just go firing people right away. You know, make sure you have a process.
Speaker 2:Wendy says just fire your entire staff. That's the thing, yeah fire your entire staff.
Speaker 3:Please don't do that. It is very difficult to replace human beings, and then you also might get sued.
Speaker 1:So I want to bring this back to, because you said soak it up buttercup was focused on leaders. So in that respect, I really need some feedback from you as the information or insight. How do you? Because let's just deal with leaders Leaders are supposedly chosen. It's a reason why you, you were picked to lead an organization, a team, a group or people. So how do you have that training and that conversation, especially when you get to see sweet, when they're very confident, I am the reason we are here, I am the key to our success. It's that the quintessential you know long as a yes. So how do you, in turn, as a trainer, as a consultant, say to someone who's very grandiose at times that you know, put your people first, when you know I'm the head?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. So a couple things. I'm not a fan of the term leaders. I'm a fan of the term managers, because leaders are could be anybody. It could be the maintenance person that just got hired yesterday, it could be the receptionist, it could be the CEO, so you know. Just a little side note there Managers are hired in or promoted into positions.
Speaker 3:They should be trained on what you and the company want. How do you want them to motivate people? Are they allowed to give bonuses? Are they allowed to do this? That's the other thing.
Speaker 3:So, having a review, so to speak I'm not a fan of reviews either, but I'll get to that later but having a feedback conversation with those leaders slash managers to say you're doing this and our company expectations are not that they're this, they need you to change and if you don't change, then you can't be in this position.
Speaker 3:But for whatever reason, executives are not having those difficult conversations. They'll have it with the $20 an hour person, but they're not going to have it with the $150,000 a year person. And it blows my mind and, honestly, I won't work with those companies. If they're not willing to hold their management team accountable, then I'm not going to help them hold the other employees accountable Because all the employees see it. They're like, oh, these people walk on water, they can do whatever they want, but I'm getting written up for being two minutes late because I had a flat tire. It's the empathy. Going back to what you were saying before about asking about have things changed, with people running to HR or the business owner if you don't have HR, I would say they have changed. Way, way, way, way back in the day, hr was really glorified payroll.
Speaker 3:That did forms and process and it still is in some cases. I have seen it come a long way in the past 10 years, especially in the pandemic. During the pandemic, where companies turned to HR and said help, we need help. And HR should have said and hopefully some of our listeners have fine, you need help, I need help. I need somebody to do all those forms and this work that is going to keep us out of court, so that I can handle these delicate conversations over here better yet, so that I, the HR person, could help the manager to handle that conversation and then back away, hr is often the one that is through our own fault, saying I'll take care of it.
Speaker 3:Manager, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it. No, don't do that, because that's why everybody comes running to you, because somebody's wearing funky shoes or something like that. No, this is our dress code, this is the way we behave in here. People are allowed to do this, they're not allowed to do that, and there's nothing wrong with this. Go back to work, or there's the door.
Speaker 1:Say it a lot nicer than that. Oh, wow, we have not begun to scratch the surface. I haven't been again to ask any of the questions. We're kind of coming to the end of this episode. One thing I do want to say on the episode two of course we pose the future and we're going to get to the future where it's been Before we leave.
Speaker 1:I do want to kind of quickly make this point and get feedback from you on when I said the evolution of HR. We know, for those of us I've been in corporate America for 30 years and so has Toby One thing I know for sure it goes back to what you were saying from a business perspective, hr was more the payroll in that area. But from a people and personality standpoint the evolution of HR because I remember when HR used to be off, away from everyone else, it was segmented in the office, it was quiet. They didn't, because HR held your secrets and they held everyone pay the history of HR seems like they wanted them to be separate from everyone else, untouchable, hr is private, and now it's like the evolution of HR has changed and now they're one of us, they want them. I feel like it's been a positive and a negative. I want to get back into that part on the next episode too.
Speaker 2:I want to hear why you're not giving out reviews. That's what I want to ask you about next time.
Speaker 3:Here's my opinion on you.
Speaker 1:We're going to leave that because that's like a teaser that our reviews and the future of HR. We really want to make sure we don't end this because it's the beginning of 2024 with some insight to help people who are possibly considering getting in the market. Who's already there to give them some insight on the future of business? Wendy, thank you again. We appreciate it. We'll pick this up shortly. Good chat with you again. Thank you, take care.
