Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
The concept of Perch is simple yet profound. It represents more than just a moment of stillness; it embodies a philosophy of life. Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent, Harm. It’s a call to rise above the noise and seek higher ground to gain a clearer view of the world around us. When we Perch, we create space to see the bigger picture, understand different perspectives, and make decisions that reflect our highest values.
Navigating complexities with empathy is one of the most significant challenges we face today, and it is the ability to understand and empathize with those who hold different views. Our experiences and backgrounds deeply influence our beliefs and the environments we are exposed to. Where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do. When we Perch, we acknowledge this truth and strive to see the world through the lens of others.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
Blunt HR conversation from AI to lawsuits with Wendy Sellers Part 2
Explore HR challenges, company culture insights, and tips from #TheHRLady Wendy's Sellers book 'The Asshole Whisperer' How to deal with crappy leaders and jerks in the workplace. Dive into AI's impact on recruitment, crafting AI-friendly resumes, and the remote work revolution. Wendy's expertise offers authentic interview techniques and fair hiring practices. Decode AI recruitment with humor and gain invaluable HR insights.
Let's all keep searching to expand our view!
Well, happy New Year, fellow Perchlings. Nice to see you all back with us again for another year of Perch. For those of you who were with us last week or I guess it's two weeks ago, we were here with Wendy Sellers and covering some heavy shit. Yes, this is not a graphically accurate, this is not PC friendly this week. So we're going to talk to the HR lady about some crazy stuff going on in the world of HR. Talked a little bit about it last time but want to dive into some other interesting topics Very unorthodox, I would say. View of HR. Would that be a fair statement, wendy?
Speaker 2:Yes, that would be 100% fair statement. I've never been accused of being orthodox. Wendy is not your average HR person.
Speaker 1:So you better just keep your hands inside the ride and suck it up.
Speaker 3:And I do. Did I cut you off?
Speaker 1:Of course, but I'm used to it, you know.
Speaker 3:You were supposed to say no, you didn't cut me off.
Speaker 1:I need to go talk to HR and find my safe space.
Speaker 3:No, the door is closed. I thought HR door was always open.
Speaker 3:I sent you in the first episode. What HR department did you come from, wendy? You got a closed door you can't come in. So I do want to piggyback off. I know the goal. In episode one I said we're going to talk about the future and I want to get there. We did address in episode one you're sucking up buttercup and we talked about it a little what we did not talk about in the elephant in the room for me. Fuck around and find out. That's your series and we didn't dive into that. Fuck around and find out what it is. Hr lady. That seems pretty profound. The HR lady, not just HR lady, the HR lady two trademarks on that.
Speaker 2:actually, I am the only one that could be called the HR lady in the United States. Look at you.
Speaker 2:So I have a podcast. The HR lady and I decided not too long ago to do a little mini series called fuck around and find out, and we talk about racism and things that most people just don't talk about, and especially not in the HR space. It's all shush, shush. So I just wanted to talk to good old, regular people and find out what's going on and what are the consequences. And the consequences in the business world is lawsuits and lawsuits mean money, even if you win right. So even if you win a lawsuit, it's going to cost you a ton of money, but it's going to be all over the news and it's not going to be like oh, I'm a candidate, I'm going to flock to that employer because they just got sued for discrimination of whatever it is. So that's kind of what the premise is. But if you have any heated topic that you're afraid to talk, to send it my way and I'll do the interviews for you.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I want to ask you. Is this kind of like an anlanders for crazy HR stuff?
Speaker 3:Toby, who's anlanders?
Speaker 1:You know, I'm sorry, I'm showing my age together.
Speaker 2:I've only done a few series so far. I really do want to help my listeners by not letting them end up in the news. So I am going to be making fun of a lot of companies that fucked around and found out, and they found out financially and they're all over the news and people don't want to work for them now and they have thousands, if not millions, of dollars in fines and lawsuit results that you know because they screwed up and they didn't listen.
Speaker 1:How much of that do you think is based on culture, like just a culture of divisive behavior or a culture of animosity, or a culture of just insensitivity? Is this the fish stinking from the head?
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of it. We mentioned in our first show that you know, most businesses in America are small businesses, so they don't have an HR department, they don't even. Probably it's as a business owner and a few employees, and I think a lot of it. The bad decision making is company owners going it's my company, I'll do whatever I want, and not realize like no asshole, there's laws that you have to follow. And, yeah, for many years your employees just quit and walked away and didn't sue you.
Speaker 2:But now, in today's age, people are done with that and they're like no, I could go find another job, but I'm also going to sue you because you need to find out how you're hurting everybody. So that's you know, that's my opinion is there's they. People start a business and they don't know the people side. They know they have a really great product or an okay product and they have a really great service, but they hire people and say, no, I'm not, I'm not following this, these rules, I'm not going to have diversity, I'm not going to work. You know, hire somebody who's gay, no, not going to do it. And then they find out later oh, there's laws against that. Didn't realize that.
Speaker 3:So is that a segue into your other book, the asshole whisper?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the asshole whisper is a book about crappy leaders and jerks at work and it is a management book.
Speaker 1:So it's not for employees.
Speaker 2:It's for managers to say hey, you're, you may have a, you may have a crappy employee. And this is in, and I share a lot of stories in there, of real life stories. I put a survey out on LinkedIn and I didn't ask for anybody's name and people submitted all their situations that of they thought they had a crappy leader, and in some of those situations I had to tell the employee who again, I don't know who it is, so they have to read my book to find out that, like no employee, you are the asshole. I'm sorry, and your manager did the right thing, and so so it's not so it's not the leaders that asshole is whispering.
Speaker 3:Everyone asshole is whispering, and this my asshole never whispers.
Speaker 2:I just want to be a little bit of both. It's saying like hey, don't just, don't blame the leaders, don't blame the managers. Sometimes you employee have to grab that mirror and suck it up and say I'm part of the problem here and you know, kind of started talking about it before. Like today's, you know generation, but it's really not age based, it's just today. 2024 is. People know that they have rights and then some people think they have more rights than they actually do.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm really glad you're bringing that up because I well both Tree and I work in the restaurant industry. The restaurant industry is fraught with frivolous lawsuits and you know, I just came back from California on Monday and California seems to be a hotbed for frivolous lawsuits. And one of the clients that I work with says that any employee that goes to a lawyer they like immediately slap on the back of a lawsuit. And oh, by the way, it's unfair labor practices and because in California you've got to clock out, you've got to show that you like all of the onus is on the, on the on the company to do all of this stuff. At some point we got to balance the playing field. Or am I just so close to it that I that it looks to me like it's become an employee driven frivolous lawsuit world? I'm sure there are a lot of honest, fair lawsuits, but it seems like we've become overly litigious.
Speaker 2:It depends on the state California, new York, most of the West Coast states they are definitely much more employee friendly and the rest of the United States. I would say I mean I'm just guessing here 75, 80% of the United States still, employee are driven.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, it just it seemed crazy to me, sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no, no it is. And and I mean, if you're, if a lawyer takes your case, you you're more likely to have a case, especially if the lawyer says you don't have to pay me because we're going to win this and we're going to take the employer is going to pay. If an lawyer says, yeah, employee, I'll help you, but you got to pay me, then that means they're just trying to really screw the employer to say, hey, we're going to send you this complaint and we want money. And many companies dumbly, in my opinion, go okay, let me just pay them out to make them go away. And I'm like how the rest of your employees hear about that, you idiot. Even though it's supposed to be confidential, everybody finds out. And now everybody's going to sue you. And you didn't actually do anything wrong, you just wanted to go away.
Speaker 1:And I'm like no, sometimes it costs more to fight it than it does to just pay the fee. I mean so in the end.
Speaker 2:It might cost more right now you know out of your bank account but in the end, if you fight it and win because you did the right thing, then the rest of your team knows okay, that employee was a bad employee. You didn't let them get away with anything, you fired them, you fought them, you won and now the rest of us are standing behind you. So you know there's two sides. So many HR people and so many you know. I'll just say consultants are always like the employees right, the employees right, the employees right and it's like well, listen, employees are always right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that asshole needs to go, so start the documentation and the review process now. So let's talk about the reviews real quick. This is why I don't like annual reviews. They're too late, you know, and many managers will say well, I'll just, we'll just talk about that in your review in nine months. No man, let's talk about it right now.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So I like regular feedback all the time, monthly if possible, and it gets easier. It doesn't have to be a four hour conversation. If you're having conversations, scheduled conversations with your employees all the time, then next month's conversation might be 10 minutes and you know now that they're not happy. You know now that they're not. They're not, they didn't make that training and that's why they're not performing well at their job. Versus finding out six months later.
Speaker 2:If you're doing semi annual reviews or bi annual, I should say, and, or a year, like why wait that long? Right. And then if you're waiting for a year or even six months to do an official review to put them on an improvement plan, now you have to wait another time period to get through the improvement plan. So feedback conversation should be, you know, formal all the time and then casuals to all the time. So that means your managers work just, you know, got a lot more. You, if you're putting people in a management position, you have to give them the time to manage, which means you need to take away the product and the service work a great deal of it. So they're spending most of their time managing human beings and not everybody's going to want to hear that, because they want their manager to also be the product person.
Speaker 1:Right they just keep more stuff on them.
Speaker 3:And one other thing I'll add and I'm going to take us, we're going to do a 180 and go go in a different direction because I really want to give people some insight to the starting over and where the market is and in the future, of finding yourself in a position to be in a market to look for a job. But I do want to say about to piggyback on your review issue. It's imperative, like you said, to have that monthly conversation because if you're addressing it on a monthly, you're giving out those tools and feedback to see, hopefully, progression. So by the time you have that review now it's natural and it's organic and say we've been talking about this month over month None of this is a surprise to you.
Speaker 3:When these things are, as opposed to you wait in nine months and be like well, you suck and you never did that Well, you had nine months of sucking Right.
Speaker 3:But what I want to talk about to is about HR with AI. Now that AI is out of the box, it's a genie, it's out there and even though I know we did another show seeing how it's so big that they're kind of dialing it back and saying, you know, we can't even manage this. So when traditionally you bought, in the first episode you had your little resume. You went into a company whenever you had. The game has totally changed. So how has AI affected HR in the industry and people ability to even connect to corporations, when everything is about you know your resume and having those buzzwords to target and you don't even get a chance to see me and I don't even get a chance to get to apply.
Speaker 2:So I love AI. Ai is not new. Everybody thinks it's new because it's chat, gpt and Google Bard, but we've been using some form of AI for very, very long time. You know all the chatbots that pop up when you go to buy something online. That's all AI, and so we've been using it for a long time. And just so you know, for the listeners, if you are using AI and hiring specifically, there are some guidances that came out a couple years ago and then just this past year by the EEOC. So just Google, eeoc HR AI, and you're going to look at the guidances there, because if you're using it to weed out resumes, you may be, unintentionally or intentionally, discriminating against people.
Speaker 2:So let's go back to the resume thing. With resumes, I write my friends resumes all the time. Almost every time I write somebody's resume, they get a job interview, and so you could use AI to do that. But let's just say, an employee candidate is using AI to rewrite their job description or resume to match your job description. We've been doing that already. You've been using me, you've been using other resume builders, so it's not anything completely new.
Speaker 2:The biggest thing, though, is you've got to teach people how to interview, because if you're just selecting somebody because they have an amazing resume, it could be AI generated or they could have hired somebody to create that resume, and so we have to teach people how to interview. First of all, what you can't ask. You know age, for example, or, hey, where you're from. You have an accent oh geez, now you just got into you know some other form of discrimination but AI should be able to help the HR. People Are you. Should you be relying on AI 100%? Absolutely not, just like we shouldn't be relying on Google 100%. Google sends us to all these websites that we don't know if they're real or not. We don't know if the information is factual, and if you Google something and go onto somebody's website including mine, and go, oh, google sent me here, it must be truth Well then you're a freaking idiot. Okay.
Speaker 3:So can I just before, because it's something I just want us to back up a little before we get into. So you said, which I don't like I'm trying to move the word debate or argue out of my vocabulary and replace that with perch. So what I want to perch on is you said that AI. Not only is it not new that we've been pretty much posturing our resume accordingly, the part that I want to perch on is the fact that not really, because what we did is we crafted our resumes and we went to resume writers and all those things to help us. What's the word for it? I don't want to say embellish.
Speaker 3:Cure it, Mark it ourselves yeah to market ourselves and so that was specific to who we are and just trying to polish who we are. That's what we did. Now with AI and the buzzwords it's specific to. You can keep now because as an, I don't have an insight to your organization, so I just in the past, would give you my resume and hoping that it was a well-written resume. Well, now with AI, I can literally have an insight to what you are looking for specifically in your buzzword. Now I can posture and change my resume to just accordingly for every outcome, and I think that's the huge for me. That's what I see as-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I'm gonna put it less eloquently. You give me the license to cheat and lie now, as opposed to before, where an HR manager would say I see the potential in this person, oh, this person has an interesting background. Now it's like the HR person just gets three resumes and the other 600 that may be really talented people, but did not put those three search words in fall on the wayside, and to me I think that's kind of a Right. But again.
Speaker 2:this has been happening for years. It's just as you said. Now it's easier to happen. This has been happening for years. I've always taught everybody hey, you want a job, Look at their job ad, Look at your job resume, Make sure the keywords in the job ad are on your resume, Don't lie. And then, if it's going through an AI program which, again, we've been using for years in HR and everywhere else it's going through a scanning system. The scanning system will look at the resume and pull out the keywords that match the job description. It's the same thing. That's been happening for years. It's just easier now and everybody has access.
Speaker 1:And everybody seems to know how to job the system today. So Right.
Speaker 3:But then you have a global presence and I think this is so is layers to it. So you say it's easier now. So take the fact that it's easier now, take the fact that, especially since the pandemic, a lot of workers remote, so now we're locally people. This particular company had, on average, 200 resumes. Now that I'm in a market, I've even seen one position. I told you about 5,000. You're number 5,745.
Speaker 3:It was like how do you show up in a market like that and I'm saying that that's the evolution of HR, that's where we have come, and especially when you're talking about higher level executive positions that don't need to be in an office and don't need to be in an environment Now you can even have global competition. So the game, the field, the landscape is definitely changing, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And now the good news is not everybody wants to work remote. Some people want to go into the office to get away from their families. But talking about the remote conversation, if you can offer your employees remote opportunities, even if it's just two days a week or a couple hours, and flexibility, then please do it, because your competitor is doing it. That's really what it comes down to. It is a much more globally competitive market than it's ever been since the pandemic and since remote work. And AI is helping and harming. Right, ai could help the candidate, but if a candidate's not using it, then they're the ones that are getting down on your 5,000 number candidate.
Speaker 2:But regardless if you have five applicants or you have 5,000 applicants, you still have to plan your hiring process. What are the questions that you're asking the applicant before they hit submit? That's going to rule them in or rule them out, regardless of what their resume looks like. Oh, do you live in this state? We require you to live in this state. No, boom, there goes 1,000 resumes out the door, and so it's all about setting up a process.
Speaker 2:I just did a training yesterday on this, on how to do recruiting in 2024. And it's really about planning. Stop that job ad, pause it, stop it completely and let's start all over and have the whole plan set up that the minute I put this job ad live, I know I'm going to get probably 100 resumes. So let's make sure all of my interviewing team is their schedule is blocked off for next week, so that you are doing the first interview, you're doing the second interview, the team's doing the final interview. Ok, let's block off calendars so that we know and we're prepared and we have interview questions vetted out by HR or somebody who is acting as HR to make sure they're legal and then make sure that they're consistent, so that all the applicants get to ask the same question. Obviously, some natural conversation is going to come out of it, right? But that way you're very consistent Like. These are the main questions we want the answers to, and then we'll never get accused of discrimination.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense? Yeah, I have an off the wall question and I don't know what you said You're having off the wall question Hard to believe.
Speaker 1:I know it's cause normally I'm right down the middle of the road. So a friend of mine not that long ago was asked as part of an application, as part of interviewing for a job, to put together a business plan for this company. It took them probably three weeks to do this work PowerPoints and graphs and research and all that. And I remember thinking to myself I'm gonna use a technical term this is bullshit. You know why are they getting these people to do all this work for them? And they're gonna get 10 or 15 of these research projects free work. Now I'm a consultant for a living. I look at that and they go. You just gave them free work. Is that legal?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, so they should be been paid for that work. So you know, when you bring in an employee candidate and you're like, oh, we're gonna do a trial day or you're gonna come and work for two hours, technically by the Department of Labor standards, you're supposed to pay for that work. So you know, candidates, don't give them your work, just say no, yeah, I'll give you this, but here's my consulting fee. But aren't you at that point?
Speaker 1:Cause somebody else will do it, somebody else will do it, you know, but you know.
Speaker 2:This is the thing that I say. Do you want to work for that company? But you know. But in all fairness, and I have.
Speaker 3:I wasn't the friend he was referring to in a statement. We're not even that friendly.
Speaker 3:But I have had this. It really depends on the job and the position that you're in, because it's not uncommon for what I do. I've had interviews in the past. Well, that's kind of par for the course, where if your job is about a P and L and budgeting and numbers and they want to, because the paper is only going to tell them so much, they want to know that you really have that ability to create a process and streamline it. So I get both sides, I get why corporations I've gone through some extreme things like four rounds of interviews where I was told to create a company, give the company a name, gave me a budget and figure out like, create my own circumstances. I mean it's an extreme thing.
Speaker 1:I think that's excessive. It is excessive, and then all they're doing is collecting a lot of information.
Speaker 2:I mean, if it's gonna take the, you wanna make sure the candidate knows what they're talking about, they're not just bsing you right, but it definitely shouldn't be before the first interview. This should be like down to three candidates, two candidates, and it really shouldn't take that much time. Give me or show me other examples, but I'm not handing it to you here.
Speaker 1:I'll show you my portfolio. Well, let's bring you into the boardroom and fire a couple questions at you. How would you read this P&L? But this idea that you're gonna go take a month to go create a presentation, they're gonna get 20 of them, I mean, to me that's just egregious.
Speaker 3:Well, speaking of that too, we started off and I kinda cut you off when you talked about the interviewing process. So, as far as the future, how do you? Because you bought up, okay, your resume is gonna get you in a door. The issue, you see a lot, is people don't know how to interview. So my question to you is there is two levels to interviewing.
Speaker 3:Well, three levels, because typically it's the phone that you have that pre-interview and it's the phone related. Well, it used to be the phone and then it went to the phone and then video. Now we do a conference because. And then the third level, depending on your position and what you do, is the face-to-face here in Liza Rupp, with all three levels. That's a different form of communication and connectivity. Most people do well on a phone, because I don't have to look at you, you don't see my expression, but I think for because we're doing this now we're doing this on camera. You're on camera, toby's on camera and on camera. To me sometimes it's even harder because if you're an energy person, I'm in a room with you, you can pick up on my vibes. How do you teach people the nuances of how to interview? Well, what is different techniques for each process?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so practice, practice, practice, practice. If you have to practice in the mirror, if you have to practice with your spouse, your friend, have the other person ask questions. You can Google questions, you know what I mean and say, all right, what are the common questions that somebody would ask? You could use chatGPT to help you out creating those questions too. But just practice, practice, practice it is. I mean, an interview is nerve-wracking for a candidate and often, unfortunately, the people that are doing the interview are not prepared for it at all, so they're winging it. And then you're like, okay, what's going on? So I always just make sure you practice and then bring questions, have pre-vedic questions.
Speaker 2:The candidate should be asking questions at the end of the interview. You know when the interviewer goes, hey, do you have any questions? Do you go no, no, like no, yes, I've researched this. I've looked up information on your website. I have a question on this. I want to. You know, have a candidate like start asking the interviewing questions about benefits. Do you have a benefits package? You could email me, you know, because most managers aren't going to have the benefits questions. Hr is, and HR really shouldn't be in all of the interviews. It's okay if there's gonna be in it, but they shouldn't be running it. I don't know why HR is interviewing a mechanical engineer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hey. As we start to wrap up here, I'd love to ask, just from a levity standpoint, what are some major offsets when we do interviews? Things that you've heard people saying oh my God, I can't believe you asked that, or along the same lines. Things that people have brought to you during your podcasts that you look at and say, seriously, I mean love to hear some great anecdotes, yeah so from an interviewer.
Speaker 2:The employer side is they don't train, they're interviewers. What you can and cannot say and cannot ask in the United States oh hey, it looks like you're pregnant. When are you do? Oh, hello, you know, but they think I'm just being nice, I don't care if that, if she's pregnant, I'm just being nice. No, now, when you don't hire her, you may be accused of pregnancy discrimination. Oh, you have an accent. Where, where are you from? What do you mean? Where I from? I'm from New York. Oh, are you sure you're not from Asia?
Speaker 2:It's like no no even if they're not you may be accused of some discrimination, of, you know, national orientation, national origin, so just those common sense things, when they think they're just trying to be friendly on the candidate side, I hear other things as well, like, oh, I'm in the middle of a divorce, I don't know what I'm going to do about my child care, and it's like, oh, my goodness, even though the interviewer is not supposed to take that into consideration, food out here is much better than it was in prison.
Speaker 1:you know stuff like that? Tell me.
Speaker 2:Yeah or oh. The other thing if there's any candidates that are listening is please practice what you're going to say about why you left your last job, whether you left on your own or whether you got terminated. If you're throwing the previous employer under the bus, even if they're the worst employer ever, you know it's not going to look good in your interview because they're going to see red flags that say this person is drama and I don't want them on the team.
Speaker 2:This ground and so you could come up with a way of saying, well, it just didn't fit the culture you know, my culture and their culture were two different things. Or I asked for training and I didn't get it, and so I just decided to go ahead and look for something else elsewhere, you know. So making sure you you seem like a nice, sane person.
Speaker 3:Seemed like a sane person, we go. That that's an interesting statement. Hopefully you are sane and you don't have to just be like you're saying. So I want to thank you, but before we bring this to an end, we started this the future of a HR. Is there any insight, any tips? Do you see any seismic shift? Where do you see HR going? And and and help us with whatever you see for the future. Sure.
Speaker 2:So HR has come a long way, especially in the past couple of years, and I'm excited that people still actually want to get into HR. Every time that somebody says, calls me and says, hey, can you give me some advice, I'm like, are you crazy?
Speaker 1:Run away Exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm like. I just want to let you know it's not all fun in games. You know it's mostly, you know crying and tears, and you know so. What I see, though, just even for 2024, is a lot of the same of 2023. There's going to be continued quiet, quitting and, in an unengaged. Employees are just not being managed accurately and we're blaming the employee Instead of the management team, and I want to say don't point fingers at the manager, because if you put managers in positions and you haven't trained them or given them support, then you know the egg on the face should be on the executive team, not on the managers. So I definitely going to.
Speaker 2:We're going to continue seeing people leaving jobs or quitting and staying, and this isn't something new. This is something that knew that the media has decided to name it it's. We're going to continue to have very difficulty attracting new talent because people have options, even though there are mass layoffs going on. That's in big companies who probably overhired because they were greedy. We're going to continue to see this turnover and the hardship of attracting people increase the cost of doing business, which sucks because we're already all struggling, but it's going to continue to be expensive to run a business. There's a lot more laws that are changing within the United States and within within every single state. Let's just say wage, wage laws at a minimum here that if you were running a business before and you were just winging it, you're not going to succeed because you have to have a plan and you have to pay at market, if not more, or you're just going to train people and then they're going to leave.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I see that I predict is going to continue happening is that businesses hopefully I don't know if it's going to happen at 24, 2024 is they're going to have to realize that the finger pointing and the blaming of lazy and incompetent employees really is on them.
Speaker 2:You know, they need to take that mirror and say, hmm, I'm part of the problem because I don't have managers, or I don't have trained managers, or I've hired this person on a wing and a prayer and then I didn't do anything about helping them with their knowledge, skills and ability, and now I'm blaming the employee who I should have never hired anyway. So I see that is, you know, 100% continue to happen. Then, as you've already mentioned AI, ai is becoming accepted as a business tool, just like Google and the internet was back in the day and technology, you know, became accepted accepted, but we have to train our employees of how to use AI and what we individual companies accept within our companies of AI use or AI not use. So your employees are probably using it anyways, if you've approved it or not.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So managing your employees, truly, truly managing them, having those feedback conversations on a regular basis. If you're not doing it, you have to start doing it in 2024, or your employees are going to leave or quit and stay.
Speaker 1:So I'm sorry. So, wendy Sellers, as we wrap up, you have a podcast. What is your podcast?
Speaker 2:Yes, I have a podcast. It's called the HR Lady podcast, okay, and there is a mini series on there called Fuck Around and Find.
Speaker 1:Out and it can be found on YouTube.
Speaker 2:I am on YouTube, I'm an Instagram, linkedin, you name it, I'm everywhere.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, okay, great.
Speaker 3:Fantastic. Thank you, toby, and before we go, because literally while you're talking, I hear about eight more topics we need to discuss and didn't get to. So there will be, per people, several follow-ups with Wendy. If she would love to join us again, she'll have an open seat. But what I would ask for all purchase. I know some of you have questions, a lot of things we hit on and didn't address, so please feel free to let us know Bring Wendy back again what question you have. What didn't we touch? What would you like for us to dive in deeper? Thank you again for joining us.
Speaker 1:Happy 2024 to you, wendy, happy 2024.
Speaker 2:Happy New Year.
Speaker 3:Happy New Year to all and must success to everyone in the new year. Thank you and have a good day. Bye, all Bye.
