Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
The concept of Perch is simple yet profound. It represents more than just a moment of stillness; it embodies a philosophy of life. Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent, Harm. It’s a call to rise above the noise and seek higher ground to gain a clearer view of the world around us. When we Perch, we create space to see the bigger picture, understand different perspectives, and make decisions that reflect our highest values.
Navigating complexities with empathy is one of the most significant challenges we face today, and it is the ability to understand and empathize with those who hold different views. Our experiences and backgrounds deeply influence our beliefs and the environments we are exposed to. Where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do. When we Perch, we acknowledge this truth and strive to see the world through the lens of others.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
Intimacy, Sex and Connection with 25 year relationship and Intimacy coach Ken Blackman
Joining the Perch is Ken Blackman, a former Apple engineer turned international relationship and intimacy expert. Ken is in his 25th year of helping couples co-create a thriving partnership and an exquisite love life.
Ken's unique perspective on intimacy has caught the attention of major publications like Business Insider, Cosmopolitan, and Playboy. He's also been a part of the conversations sparked by Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour series. A regular and featured contributor to The Good Men Project, Better Humans, and Sexography, Ken brings a wealth of knowledge, and today, he's here to share his insights with us. On top of that, he curates his wisdom in his Medium publication, "The Craft of Intimate Coupledom."
So, whether you want to deepen your connection or ignite a new spark in your relationship, sit back as we unfold the secrets to a fulfilling partnership with Ken Blackman. Let's get started.
https://kenblackman.com
Let's all keep searching to expand our view!
Well, good day fellow perchers and welcome to the perch. Before we get started, and Toby is going to do today's introduction, I just want to say I am so I feel like I say this all the time, but I am really excited about this one. I have asked for this guest to grace our presence. I think can I reach out to you back in October. If I'm not, I had to go back and check my email, so I've been wanting this for a while. Perch, we've talked about a lot of subjects. There's no subject.
Speaker 2:Nothing we dodge.
Speaker 1:We don't dodge anything. Maybe, we should. Maybe we haven't, but we don't. But this one is my, has been, will be my pleasure to talk about this subject, because today we are talking about sex and intimacy, and here on a perch. The whole purpose of perch is for you. So whatever you feel about a subject or whatever your thought process is, we ask you when you join a perch, you know we try to elevate the discussion, try to get you to see it from different perspectives.
Speaker 2:And so for Nat Toby, you can take it away with your introduction yeah, and Tree says I have to act like an adult today. Try, I'm going to do my best. It's not always the easiest thing in the world, so let me excuse me. So let me read a quick intro for our guest today. So a former Apple engineer turned international relationship and intimacy expert, ken, is in his 20th year helping couples co-create a thriving life partnership and an exquisite love life. His work has garnered mentions in Business Insider, cosmopolitan Playboy, tim Ferrita's 4-Hour Series and elsewhere Our Series and elsewhere. He's a regular featured contributor to the Good Men Project, better Humans Sexography and his own medium publication, the Craft of Intimate Coupledom, and hopefully I didn't make any mistakes in that, ken.
Speaker 2:That's not Tim Ferriss, but we're good, okay, all right, so that's it.
Speaker 3:So welcome, though I do have an update that's five years old. I'm celebrating my 25th year doing this full-time. Oh my, goodness. Well happy anniversary.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, what's the 25-year anniversary? I guess that would be a Never mind.
Speaker 1:Don't use your hands.
Speaker 2:Whatever, it is yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:But yes, I want to start Thank you. Thank you for joining our us again With all sincerity. I mean I appreciate you working us in. Before we get too deep in here, Thank you so much for inviting me. Absolutely. I went in your intro. It's something I want to start on right off the bat. What's exquisite? How did you describe it? Exquisite, exquisite. What was I have?
Speaker 2:to go back to the type it's it's love life, exquisite love life yeah, so please help me with that yes that's an exquisite love, yeah yeah, it's a.
Speaker 3:It's a good question. I used to have right in that spot.
Speaker 3:I used to say gourmet, um, and so here's how I think about gourmet you know like delectable yeah, gour, gourmet sex life, because you like so many, so many of us approach our sex life, you know, like it's fast food, you know what's what's going to be, what's going to be fast, what's going to be like like you know how, like Doritos are intensely flavored and you know.
Speaker 3:Or, or junk food is very, very intensely flavored, but it's not very nourishing. And sex and connection and intimacy all of those things are nutrients that we, as humans, hunger for, and so you know, in the same way, like you know, there's not much more basic biological than sex. I mean, there's breathing, there's eating, you know, but breathing is kind of boring, but eating is, is something that you can actually, you know, spend a lot of time learning how to cook delicious meals. You can go and have a, have a delicious meal you would spend hundreds of dollars to have and talk about for months afterwards, and so I think sex can be like that, and I also feel, like you know, it can get better over time with your partner. It doesn't have to be like you know, you keep looking for new partners and then it goes downhill. No, the best sex, in my opinion, is the sex that you cultivate with your partner over time. So you know you can elevate it to a gourmet experience for sure.
Speaker 2:And, unlike a gourmet meal, you actually lose weight. You don't gain weight. If you do it correctly, I'm sure so that's that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:So it's funny because and it's ironic that you use in the comparison with food and relation and sex, and you went from gourmet because I've done it multiple times I've used food as a reference for even diversity in culture, I would say, because with a meal you know the more seasonings, which is a lot of peppers and colors and spices.
Speaker 1:So the more diversity you know you have in it, the better it is. But I find it interesting that what you're saying is opposite to what society believes because, with all due respect, that's why it's not. The numbers have always been staggering between older men and younger women. The whole purpose of that is well, she's younger, you know, and you know not only looks but as far as stamina and people think when you're older, sex becomes more taxing, um, and some people physically difficult and hard to do. So you're saying that from the reverse of the way that society sees it. Like you know you got a good couple. You know your 20s and 30s Get it in because, because after that it's all downhill. And that's just honest, honest and true about society and the way society reflects on it. But your, your, your viewpoint is different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's funny, we don't think that way about food, I mean. So here's the analogy that I give, that way about food, I mean. So here's the analogy that I give. So imagine that you're a couple and imagine that you cook dinner together I don't know a couple times a week, right and you cook it together and you eat it together. So the first thing you have to figure out is you know you have different tastes in food, so you have to figure out how to make a meal where both of you are getting you know the stuff that you like to eat and avoiding like, oh, one person doesn't like spicy food, the other person has an allergy to so-and-so. So the first thing you have to do is figure out how are we going to make a meal where both people get what they want and neither of them has to have eat something that they don't enjoy. Same thing with sex. Like how can we both get up from the bedroom, you know, gratified, without having to do something that we don't enjoy doing? Totally doable, that's like that is completely doable, and that's step one.
Speaker 3:So now you're cooking these meals. You kind of have a basic idea of how to cook meals for each other. Um, then you start, you know, you start playing with, with different cuisines. Oh, you know, let's, I, I'd like to learn how to cook mexican food. Oh, here's an herb or a spice or a cooking utensil. That that, I think, what you I wanted, I want to try playing with.
Speaker 3:Oh, you can start trying out recipes and, and you know, like, like, you start, you start out following the recipe and then pretty soon, you make it your own thing. Well, if a couple is doing that, it's like with, with very little drama, with very little effort, with a very little, you know, fighting or anything. Five years from now, those meals are going to be dialed in. They're going to be like, oh, be like, oh, we're making better meals for ourselves than what you could get at a restaurant, and it wasn't that hard. We talk about it every day and put time and energy and attention on it. So I think our sex life can be that way too. It can get better over time. Just doing it very simply, putting your attention on each other's bodies, what feels good, you know, and getting it dialed into you as individuals. That's how.
Speaker 3:I feel, about it and you can have sex it's you can have. So I'll I feel about it and you can have sex, it's you can have. So I'll say one more thing you can have sex. It's better than you can find if you're with a partner over time that's my say that one more time for me.
Speaker 1:You can have say that the last yeah so.
Speaker 3:So instead of keep like you, keep finding the new partner. You know we need some kind of variety. No, you can actually craft an exquisite sex life with a partner that gets to a place where it's so good. You're not you're not envious of what's out there. You're not looking for something out there. It's like you. You like what you got at home. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:So a couple of things. I grabbed my phone because it was a couple of statistics that I wanted to bring up and address, but but I do have to to say, piggyback off what you just said, I think the fact that and Toby and I had this, we try not to talk about the subjects because I don't want to know his viewpoint and I have mine, his viewpoint and I have mine, but I think it's interesting that even this is 2024. And a lot of times, just the mere fact of talking about sex, talking about intimacy, has to be put in terms where it's palatable, literally, you know, for people to digest, because we want them to get the lesson, and sex is still so taboo, no matter what age. So that's one thing, and I guess I should have started this show off by saying you know this is an adult conversation and we are having an adult conversation. We probably should have said that before. So you know if people are listening with their children, please don't because I really I really want to talk and get into this.
Speaker 1:But, with that being said, I think that I hear you. You said it very simplistically. That makes sense. Here is the what my version of kind of some truth behind it, and I think you may agree with me or not, and you don't have to. It sounds easy when you, when you compare it to a meal and say, okay, you know, well, we had Italian, now, let's try, you know a Mexican and let's try this. You're saying let's mix it up, let's let's, you know, take it to another level, and you're using food and taking on different menus. But, to be honest, in most relationships it's not uncommon. I think you know where I'm going.
Speaker 1:If you want to start changing things in a bare room, one mate will say well, where did that come from and was that not good enough? And how do you get the ego out? Because what you're saying is to experiment, to keep trying to keep things fresh. How do you teach people in your coaching to remove the ego? Because that's saying because a lot of times people will hear something is broken and something's not working, so you need to try something new, because I don't cook like that. So who taught you how to cook like that you know so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you bring up some very, some very valid points and I totally agree with you. Like my, my very simple tip of the iceberg that I gave is sitting on top of a huge, gigantic iceberg of other things that need to be in place. Like you know, you're right, Like it helps if you have a relationship where you can talk about stuff in general. Right, Like it, that that is kind of a that is kind of a necessary prerequisite if you want to have a great sex life with someone.
Speaker 3:You have to be able to say uncomfortable things to your partner and be able to talk through it and stay connected through the conversation to get to a place where you actually can hear each other and get to some sort of agreement or some sort of consensus about it and feel closer afterwards. That's one thing. The other thing is, you're right, there's a lot of ego involved and if one partner has been, shall we say, either silent, like not talking about oh, I don't really like, I'm more doing this for them than for myself, or maybe just not talking about what they actually like and what they don't, or maybe even putting on a little bit of a show because they like it. And then there's ego involved. When you start deciding, you know what. I have an uncomfortable truth to share with you. That's not going to feel good. I've kind of been, you know, maybe exaggerating, Faking faking.
Speaker 3:You know, I've been, I've been faking it and I but you know. So that is an uncomfortable conversation to have. That's like you know. But if this is a committed couple, I would like to think that it's 51%. You know, 49% Wow, that really stings. I can't believe it. I have to like take a minute to take this in. And 51%, I'm actually glad we're talking about this If that's been the truth the whole time, like I'm actually glad that you brought it up and you know so. So one person could be saying you know the the thing, if, if I'm, if I'm having the experience for real that I've been pretending to have, I promise you you will feel the difference, you will notice the difference if I'm actually enjoying it as much as I've been pretending to enjoy it, and that's the territory I want to get us into. So it could be could be afraid that makes sense.
Speaker 2:But outside of a sexual relationship, you know, confidence is important at all at all aspects of life, right? So, yeah, a person who isn't necessarily confident in their day to day life or in their business life, it's unrealistic to believe that all of a sudden they're going to go into the bedroom, take their clothes off, perhaps with light on, and somehow feel confident. So is there some aspect that you can say look, I want you to feel comfortable, I want you to understand that we're all literally exposed when this happens, and to get past that, because I feel like most relationships have a dominant person and then the other person who kind of goes along for the ride. How do you level that relationship out better?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that's a very it's a very astute question. It's a very it's kind of a complicated question and there's multiple answers to that question. So I'm just going to kind of pluck one and we can look at it and, you know, go from there. But part of it is being able to say, you know, because it's either going to sound like criticism or it's going to sound like a request, and so you know all the places where you might be tempted to say you know what I don't really like, that there, another way to another way to say the same thing is what would feel really good for me is if would you, would you touch me this way, or can I teach you something about my body? That will? That will be really that I will enjoy immensely. Like. Point them towards what you like and what you want, as opposed to criticizing them for what they're doing wrong, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3:I don't know if that answers your question, but it's going in the right direction.
Speaker 2:Well, just the idea that I think that in many cases, the largest sex organ we have is the brain, right? I mean, if we feel in the mood to be sexual, we can be sexual, and I think sometimes people get in their own way, as opposed to just saying this should be an enjoyable time, a wonderful experience. You know two people in the most ultimately intimate way possible, and somehow your brain gets in the way. Am I too fat? You know? Should I put this on? You know, oh, that that light makes me look bad, all of those things. How do you get past all that you know to really get to the true pleasurable experience that it can be?
Speaker 3:I mean my wife and I both deal with all the issues that you're talking about. It's not like it goes away. You know, I have body issues, my wife has body issues. We're getting older and we're noticing the changes in our bodies. You know, I'm 60. I'm noticing how my testosterone levels are changing.
Speaker 3:So all of these things you're talking about and I don't think there's a simple way around it Like you're going to have feelings and those feelings are going, you're right, they are going to affect your capacity to feel turned on and it's experience, and feel your libido, feel your desire and feel the desire to have sex. All those things come into play, um, where, where you can turn your attention, is what feels good to your body right now. What kind of touch feels good to your body right now? Like, turn, like, let your body and and how it likes to be, how it likes to be touched, be, be a kind of a beacon, because every, every body, every body, um, there's some kind of touch that is going to feel good. And so you know there, you're right that the brain is, is, is the, the biggest sex organ. But we can get so far into, like, all the, all the, the, the conditions or the thoughts or all that stuff that is in the way of you having just like body pleasure.
Speaker 3:And so if you turn your attention a little bit towards body, bodily pleasure, somatic pleasure, which is really what sex should be about, and focus on that and say, say I actually don't know what feels good, would you touch me this way? Oh, I actually don't like that, would you lighten up a little bit, would you move a little bit to the left, you know, and get to know your own body that way with your partner, and get to know your partner's body, and from that place a lot of that other stuff falls away, it does not like, it doesn't come up. Oh, I'm feeling really. I'm feeling really conscious of my weight today. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. How does this, how does this feel when I touch you? It's good, you know.
Speaker 1:I hear you, but I have to. I have to step in and I literally had to pull out my glasses because I didn't want to screw this up, One of the main reasons that I was so adamant about perch addressing this subject. I had been hearing this and I kind of got this early on and I tried to and I'll put the links on the website below, but this is very important. It says and this is me I am not a man, have never been a man, so I will, I will, I will.
Speaker 1:Thank you for vouching. I will leave the male talk to explain the male body. But what I am here for women and what I have to say is in these studies, like 10 to 15% of women have never had an orgasm Ever, and this was by MedlinePlusgov on orgasmic dysfunction.
Speaker 2:The government website is doing this survey about that.
Speaker 1:Why would they not? It's body, it's health?
Speaker 2:I don't know what the government's getting involved with my business.
Speaker 1:Oh, you and your government.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's get the government out of my bedroom. Way off of it anyhow.
Speaker 1:And then next the next one. It says up to 10 of women have never had an orgasm. But it went on to say, um, that 59 have faked an orgasm and nearly 82 cannot reach an orgasm through just intercourse. They need stimulation, clitoral stimulation, toys, all of that. And it went on to say that. And I remember about 20 years ago. It was life-changing for me.
Speaker 1:But I was watching Oprah and Dr Laura Berman, who was a doctor and a health psychologist. I forgot her exact title, so forgive me if I got it wrong. I remember her wrong. Yeah, she said something that forever changed the way I look at sex and approach it, because she said something so simplistic. She says, as a society, boys are allowed to go in their room and you don't go in their door. Like when a boy is in his room and his door closed, they say you don't want to walk into something, so don't just surprise, knock before you go in, because that's our society way of giving boys the freedom to masturbate. Well, girls don't have that freedom, you know. So that that's something that's given a boys.
Speaker 1:And so she said what happens when, when you're a young girl, the first boy that touch you or rub up against you, you, you give him so much power because you think the boy did that to your body. When it's your body, that's any little boy to come. Anybody came along, boy, girl, anyone came on. What comes along that touching your body will have that reaction, will have that reaction. So I'm saying all that to say how do we have the conversation Because that's what Toby was talking about when we can have communication and we can have these things when girls are raised not to talk about it from day one. So now your relationships and now you marry. Now you're telling me well, let's have adult conversations about honesty when, according to these statistics, we haven't been honest from day one that's right, and let me add some statistics to what you've already said.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I don't know how true this is now, but a decade ago what they, you know they were noticing A decade ago what they, you know they were noticing ratings, movie ratings. You know the MPAA ratings like is it G, p, d, r? You know NC-17. What they noticed was there could be some pretty graphic sex scenes in a pleasure, like a woman masturbating or someone going down on a woman, you know, and that's the primary sex act that they do in the scene. That's when it gets an NC-17 or an X rating. And so, like, all of our media is oriented towards sex being for male pleasure more so than women. Like women don't even have, they can't even turn on the movies and see, not real, you know, like a well acted, so to speak. You know something that actually shows them having pleasure, something that actually shows them having pleasure. And you're right, there's this huge gap between how often women have an orgasm in sex and how often men do.
Speaker 2:Well, even in R-rated movies, right to your point, it's much more common to see women naked than it is to see men fully naked. I mean, it's very rare to see that. So again, it's a male-dominated society and, sexually speaking, it seems to be very much targeted towards the male audience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, women are the object of sex. They're not the experiencer of pleasurable sex, right? That's just how. So you're right, women don't even, aren't even given messages that tell them that it's okay to have a healthy libido, that it's okay to enjoy sex, it's okay to want sex, it's okay to know what your body likes and to ask for it.
Speaker 3:And I used to teach. Mostly these days I have been focused more on relationships. But for the first maybe 10, 12 years of my work, my professional work, I was focused on on what happens in the bedroom and I was teaching men how to put full attention on a woman's body. And so we would set it up that, ok, you're going to go home, you're going to, you're going to put your attention on her body. She doesn't have to do anything, she's not going to owe you anything, she's there's no.
Speaker 3:Like you're going to, like all she has to do is relax and, uh, give you a little bit of instruction like how, how, how to touch her, you know, like, if, if it feels too hard, she can tell you to soften up a little bit. Oh, would you speed up? Like that's, all she has to do is relax. You give you some adjustments as you go and and enjoy it, and and then you get up and you say, okay, so that's the setup. You would be amazed how many women struggle even with that, like their mind is racing, like how am I going to tell him what you know? Like, am I, am I breathing, right? Should I be moaning right now? Like is what we're doing pleasurable for him? Right? Because that's how deep, uh acclimated women are to to thinking that sex is for the partner, like empathetic sex, rather than for their enjoyment, even when it's set up for that. So you're right, there's this huge barrier, right?
Speaker 1:Can I just, can I just can I just use one more analogy? So this happened and I think so many people can women can relate to this. So this happened I was out to dinner with some friends and the waiter was so um, the server I say waiter, he liked to, but the server was so um, aiming to please me, he was, so he wanted to get it right. We ordered a drink and he wanted to get it right and he was so pleased with himself. He was bragging about this drink and he sat it down and I didn't like it.
Speaker 1:And so I was with a bunch of women and and everything was oh, tree, tell him you like it, because and this is a metaphor for what you're saying and everything is he he's trying to please just tell him. I said I am not going to lie to him, and the table was upset with me because I have a habit of saying I don't really say I don't like things, but I don't, I don't, I don't lie, I'm not going to lie to make you feel good. So I was like when they know, when I say it's okay it's not okay, it's mediocre, it's like it's not bad.
Speaker 1:If it's bad, I'll say it's bad, but the whole point of it is this is at the root of why women struggle because it goes to the barrel. And her thing was, when he came back again, he goes, let me fix it. I said, let it go. And he goes, let me fix it for you. So he fixed the drink. He comes back again and he sets it down. And she was adamant, one friend. And she was like you are going to tell him you like it, you are not. And I was like no, I'm not. So when he got, when he said, so what do you think of the drink? And before I could say anything, she stopped me and said it was great.
Speaker 1:But that's the psyche, and women need to hear that, because we are conditioned to please, we are conditioned to not rock the boat, take it, swallow it. It goes into the bedroom. And that's why I said to you it sounds great, it sounds like you're. You're're not stating, you're not requiring much from couples. But with that many layers of years of lying before you about honesty, about how you feel about something, how do you remove all of those layers when it comes into the sex when that's our most vulnerable sacred place, when it comes into the sex when that's our most vulnerable sacred place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough, and so I'll tell you what I say to men, and then I'll tell you what I say to women, okay, so, first of all, it's useful to know that we men have no idea that all this is going on Right Like we're we're, we are clueless to it, we don't know, we have no clue to help me.
Speaker 1:Help me with that. What do you mean? The?
Speaker 3:gap, the gap between what I'm experiencing in the bedroom and what what a woman might be experiencing. That like she's, you know, if she's oriented, if she is, like many women, is oriented towards not asking for what she wants, not not telling me, but just going along with it in the way that we've been talking about right Women are trained to be that way. I don't know that she's not enjoying it as much as I am. So I have no idea how big the gap is and I have no idea. Like I say to men, first of all, I hate to break it.
Speaker 3:I tend to be pretty blunt. So if I've got the guy and I've got a relationship with him, a coaching relationship where I can actually be straight with him, I say the sex that you are like, he's asking for more sex. She's asking for better sex and I say the sex that you are trying to have with her is mediocre. I say the sex that you are trying to have with her is mediocre and the sex that you could be having with her is so much better than what you're doing. But what it's going to require in order for her to be having as much fun with it as you are, you're going to have to put 10 times the amount of attention on her body than what you have been. And he's like 10 times.
Speaker 3:And I was like, no, that's not an exaggeration, you're going's like that 10 times. And I was like, no, I, that's not an exaggeration. You're going to have to put 10 times the amount of attention on her body than what you've done up till now. And but and the sex that you will be having with this woman in this situation is, is that much better that you will be grateful, you will be, you will be grateful, you will be, you will be, you will be obsessed with pleasuring her. You know, once you experience what it's like to have a woman who's who's actually enjoying to this to the degree that that is possible isn't part of the challenge.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, go ahead, finish your thought, and then I want to ask you another question well, no, ask your question and then I'll talk about what I say it seems to me like there's an inherent disconnect that God gave us when he created man and woman, and that is that a man looks at sex as a physical act of release Okay, I'm horny, I need to have sex, I've just gotten my release, now I need a pizza Whereas women look at it and say sex is a relationship, it's intimacy, it's feeling comfortable, it's being with somebody that I love. The word love doesn't always come up when a man is thinking about sex, but it seems to always come up when a woman is thinking about I don't think so.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. Not always connection. Say connect not love love.
Speaker 2:Am I missing that, or or do you? Is that an element also that gets in the way of that making sure that both sides of the relationship are equal?
Speaker 3:a. Based on my experience, the phenomenon you're describing is cultural, not not physiological or evolutionary, like men, when, when we really get, when we really get, get deep into it. Well, I'll give you an example of myself. So I thought so. Mind you, your audience doesn't know this, but I'm 5'0". I'm not a tall man.
Speaker 3:When I was younger, I didn't consider like I wasn't wealthy, I wasn't athletic, I was very shy, I wasn't charming, I didn't know how to talk to a woman.
Speaker 3:You know, I wasn't tall, I wasn't very shy, I wasn't charming, I didn't know how to talk to a woman.
Speaker 3:I, you know, I wasn't tall, I wasn't wealthy, I didn't have any of these things that I thought were necessary, and I had been acculturated to think what I could feel, this deep, deep, deep, deep, deep hunger, and what I thought I was hungry for, was a hot young chick that adores me and has lots and lots of delicious sex with me.
Speaker 3:That's what I thought, that I, that I, that that was the, that was the thing, that if I had that, I would be completely fulfilled, until I had an opportunity to have as much of that as I wanted. And then I realized, oh, that's not actually the thing that I'm hungry for the best part of those experiences. After I had gotten over, like my initial starvation was filled very, very quickly with abundance, and what I realized was the best part of this is the conversations I have with this woman after we've had sex, and I started to get actually to the real hunger of connection that sex represented in my mind so strongly and I had to, like, rewrite what it is I think I want, and, and so I've had as many, I've had as many women who want physical pleasure and the physical pleasure of sex as want the connection, and I've had as many men say they want the connection as if they're satisfied by by the physical pleasure, and so I think, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's important and, to whatever extent you are comfortable with sharing, I think it's important to to to share a little more of your evolutionary journey from, like you said when you were younger, how you cause. You said I'm five foot nothing. And then something happened and I know a little cause. I Googled you some of your story where you got immersed into this and because I think it's important to say not only did I read about this in a book, this is lived experience and I've experienced the evolution of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there were a few things I needed to work on. I needed to work on my like. What I realized I realized was I had I had issues of low self-esteem. I had a lot of misconceptions about what women want in a partner and I had a ton of misconceptions about what I actually was hungry for. So I had to do the work to actually do things I would feel good about. I had to do the work of dismantling why I put so much of my self-esteem in the hands of women Like, oh, if a woman loves me, I'm great. If I'm lonely and alone, I'm shit of rewriting internally that I needed to do.
Speaker 3:And then there was a lot of time that I spent learning, like my way of relating with women was to get good at women's bodies. And then I ended up in a community where a man who knew how to pleasure a woman was valued right. I was in a community where women spoke the truth about the fact that they enjoyed sex, that they liked it I had never heard a woman say that before and who was willing to tell me what they liked. So I had the benefit of having women talk straight to me and hit me up. So there was a period of time during which I still struggled for a long time to look a woman in the face and have a conversation, but I could look at her body and know what to do. And so there was this period of time where, yeah, he's great in bed. He can't talk to women for shit. But that process sorry if I don't know how your audience feels about it.
Speaker 3:You're fine, okay, great know how your audience feels about you're fine, okay, great. But then the conversations I had with this human being who I had been like, like I, I had been treating women like a video game, like, oh, tell me the sequence of moves I need to do in order to get the reward. I didn't see this person as a, as a fellow human being like myself, like the way I relate with men, and so to have women who were willing to share with me the things that either men never get to hear about from a woman her actual lived experience that's so different from mine and I had no idea or the men, who don't care, or they don't listen to women don't care. Oh, they don't listen to women. And so it was through those experiences that I realized oh no, this is actually the thing that I've been hungering for, that the whole time, and sex is lives inside of that kind of thing, rather than, rather than, oh, I'm just gonna go, you know, eat, eat, doritos.
Speaker 2:And so it was out of that that I I started to really change how I relate with myself, change how I relate with women and actually be able to have like healthy, long-term relationships, with a long-term relationship with anyone, it's funny you say that because when I went to school, there was a woman that I, a fellow student who was very at the time, I would have called her sexually liberated, and she was very honest about her sexuality and she talked very openly about her sexuality and I found it very refreshing because mostly, let's face it the stigma is always guys can go talk about that stuff but, god forbid, women can't. And a guy who has a lot of sex partners is, you know, is a dude, and a woman who does it's a slut, and so there was always this stigma against it A slut was kind of aggressive.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying Slut, you just didn't say slut.
Speaker 2:Well. So to me it was very informational, because it did give me that insight into how women looked at sexuality and I always felt like even in dating we talked about this. I used to enjoy dating when I was younger, but the one thing I really couldn't stand was that whole dialogue of hey, let's go out tonight. Okay, what do you feel like? I don't know. What do you want to do? How about Chinese? No, I don't want Chinese. How about Mexican? No, I don't want Chinese. How about Mexican? No, I don't want Mexican.
Speaker 2:And it was always a one-way conversation where I threw something over the transom and I got a no back, or I got a no back or I got a yes back, and then when we finally went to some place, then they would say I knew we should have gone out for steak and it's like this wasn't a two-way conversation. If you're not getting that feedback, I don't like this. That's really wonderful. I thought this was great and both parties have enough of a thick skin, if that's the right word to take that and those criticisms if they land correctly, I could see why the challenges you are talking about continue to exist about continued exist.
Speaker 3:Great. So women listening to this here, listen to two men saying we actually want to know like it's gonna sting, like like crazy and our ego, we're gonna taste gonna be a big blow to our ego, but but if we care about you, we actually care more to know the truth and actually be connected to you, with you in that way. Then then then for you to keep feeding us this, the, the fakeness, even though obviously we do. We have been enjoying it up till now. But there's this other thing that's actually the deeper nutrient of what we're actually hungry for as men, that that that will be there. Be there if we can do it in an honest, clear way, where you feel like you can trust us enough to tell us the truth.
Speaker 1:But I think also too and I just want to say this for women, and again, this is my philosophy of life, that's why you shouldn't fake it. I like seriously, because just and I'm almost tired of these food metaphors, but I feel like here we go again. Here's another one. You know, it was like if somebody I have my ex-brother in law couldn't stand cabbage but his wife cooked it all the time and he goes, well, I just feel like she cooks it, I have to eat it. I'm like, if I don't like cabbage, I'm not eating cabbage, and so it's the same way in a food manner.
Speaker 2:But the reality, is that that's sex?
Speaker 1:And people like tend to be, especially after time, one trick ponies, you know it's the same room, the same positions, the same thing. And then it's like well, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, because if I want to go out in the great outdoors and it was what happened to tree, you know, but serious, but I'm joking, but I'm totally serious and I say but this is why you shouldn't fake it, because you get upset when someone thinks that they're pleasing you, then if that person is a pleaser, they're going to continue to do it because they think they make you happy. You make me coffee every morning. I mean I coffee, but if I get tired of it I have to say to you babe, I can't take another cup of coffee.
Speaker 1:But making a point people struggle to say, to be honest, and say that doesn't work for me. And if a woman is lying in a bed and we're in an act of intimacy, the staggering need to say something, to show some kind of emotion is there, because then you, you know, a man will be like, well, she's just a dead fish. But how do you do that? And be honest is I feel like we're just saying the same things over and over, in different ways. But yeah.
Speaker 3:So I mean, I, I was that guy, I was very, I was very accommodating. You know I, I was like I prided myself on like, yeah, you know, like water under the bridge. You know what I mean. Like some, if something bothers me, you know, like I just I just let it go. You know, like whatever, I prided myself on that until I found out from the gottman institute I don't know if your audience has heard of them, but they do actual research.
Speaker 3:They're probably the most research oriented uh organization on on how what actually happens in relationships and marriage and what makes them work. And I found out from, actually, that skill of letting things go and not making it a big deal is not the skill that makes relationships thrive. What makes relationships thrive is your willingness to say the thing that you haven't said and to stand up. Actually, you know, take a stand, even if it's something that you know that they disagree about. But to actually bring up those things that bothered you, bring up those things that irritated. You bring up those things and that blew my mind because I thought I was, I thought I was a you know doing, doing the right thing by by, by being so accommodating. No, the skill of relationship is being being capable of speaking up and then having the skill of having the conversation go all the way through to the end so and, and I'm sorry, I was gonna, I was gonna actually change topics, unless you wanted to stay on this one.
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk about kind of the, the routine and cadence. You hear people, as they get older, talk about hey, let's put it on our calendar. Hey, let's, you know, let's schedule it every Tuesday, sunday morning magic, you know. Sunday morning to me that sounds like institutionalizing intimacy. Does that work, or is it really the the best sex is is spontaneous. It's all of a sudden, it's a rainy Wednesday afternoon and I mean what, what? What do you find in terms of what?
Speaker 1:your studies, tell you today, wednesday.
Speaker 2:Yes, anyway, fancy that um, you know it's.
Speaker 3:It can be when, when we're young and we have all those hormones coursing through our veins and there is desire for sex all the time, um, then then that can be a driving factor. But there's a lot of pleasurable sex that gets left on the table. If you're waiting for your, your, your desire to, to be your guy, like it can. It can totally be that you set aside time. You know where you're, just you're. There's no pressure Like we're, like the.
Speaker 3:The worst thing you can do is set set aside that time and have an expectation of what's supposed to happen and then judge what actually happened. Open, open ended. We're just going to have some sensual time together and anything that happens there's no way to do it wrong anything that happens is the right thing. Um, then what happens is you get in, you get in into, you know you get, you get together and you, you just explore and see what's there and there's a some of the best sex that you that you've ever had comes from those times when you did nothing more than just make space for it to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wanted to say because to me I remember I forgot where I heard this when someone explained intimacy is into me, I see, and I was like that's good, I like that because that's part of that, because people don't know the difference between sex and intimacy. You know, and it's a huge difference and a lot of times what my, my, my issue that I have with the scenario Toby brought up with the timing, is it's an expectation to, like you said, deliver something in the end. An expectation to, like you said, deliver something in the end. You know, if it's our Wednesday hump day, whatever you want to call it, whatever you designate that to be, a lot of times it is on a man, the expectation is completion, because that's it. We started a job and we need to finish, as opposed to having a day of intimacy and what comes from it comes from that, and I think that that's a fundamental difference between men and women, because we can have all of these very intimate and and and not look for a happy ending, if I may say.
Speaker 2:I was actually going to ask that in your definition of intimacy, does it include intercourse, or could intimacy actually not have anything to do with intercourse?
Speaker 3:You know, we're making this distinction between sex and intimacy, which I think is valuable. I think of intimacy as just like the open sharing, whether it has to do with sex or not. But I want to even go a step further and give my definition of what sex is, because, you know, if you go down partner, you know like, uh, I was going to talk about bill clinton and not that. Well, I won't go. Whatever you need, whatever we need to get it out, and get it out toby
Speaker 1:yeah, I knew toby's gonna do this fake bill clinton.
Speaker 3:He's so proud of his impersonation of bill clinton.
Speaker 1:I did not have sex with that idiot, I just had to let him he like a toddler he has to get out his system, and then you can.
Speaker 2:He's so proud of his impersonation of Bill Clinton. I did not have sex with that woman Anywho, I just had to let him.
Speaker 1:He's like a toddler, he has to get it out of his system, and then you can go on. Good Thank you.
Speaker 3:So since we've gone there, I shouldn't have said anything. But since we've gone there, people think that his claim was that it wasn't sex because it wasn't intercourse, right, it wasn't sex because she went down on him. That's what people think. That's not what he was saying. He actually read this very complicated legalese definition of sex. Read it again and again and again and again and again, and he's a lawyer.
Speaker 3:This definition is you're having sex if you're the doer of the act, but if you're on the receiving end of the act, you're not having sex. And so, thankfully, that was thrown out. Like what are you crazy? Like how can you have sex with you but you're not having sex with her right? Like that doesn't make sense, right? But there is this question like what is, is sex? So I'll give you my definition. So if there's, uh, like physically pleasurable touch, um with with sexual arousal because there's lots of, there's lots of pleasurable touch that isn't sexual. So sexual arousal, physical touch, that that's pleasurable. And connection, connection between the two people, because two people can be rubbing their bodies, they can be rubbing genitals, but they're not connected, they're really just masturbating on each other. So my definition of sex includes all three. It's connection, pleasurable body contact and sexual arousal. If you've got that, whatever you're doing, you're having sex, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of this? I watch, you ever watch. I think it's Goop. It's Gwyneth Paltrow show on Netflix and she did a sex and intimacy one and she had these sex therapists and doctors and this man was brought to arousal by just um, the, the intimacy coach, I think he, she was just going over his body, like with her hands, but she didn't physically touch him and he orgasmed, yeah, just from that, and there was no touch. Do you consider that as sex or no? You have to touch it's a valid question.
Speaker 3:I would. I would call that sex because she was doing something like you know, if you, if you consider like pressing hard or touching really light or touching like from a couple inches away, you know like he was experiencing something. What was amazing to me about that whole episode?
Speaker 1:oh, you saw that he was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was so convinced that he wasn't going to be into right, it was a partner who was into that, that kind of energetic sex right he was. He was so convinced that that was not his thing until until he had it experienced. You know, he got a chance to experience it and it was like right, oh man, this is amazing. That was what was surprising to me about that, about that that's a good that. That's a good point people have to discover what they like. They have to discover what feels good.
Speaker 1:Speaking of discovering what they like, I do want to bring up the fact that and I think this is very important because we can't look away from it Sorry, excuse me One of the links that I'm going to put out granted, it's over 10 years old and I'm pretty sure the data has probably been refreshed since then. 10 years old and I'm pretty sure the data has probably been refreshed since then. But it was concerning to me when I saw 85% of women, you know, did not receive, could not be aroused with just intercourse. They needed, you know, other, you know stimulations.
Speaker 1:With that being said, how do we as women and I know the answer, but I'm not the specialist, I'm going to leave it up to you so how do women, when there's a lot of times, some men are intimidated by toys, you know, some men think that a toy is a replacement for you. It's saying I'm not good enough, and all of these hangups. So if it takes 85% of women to have things like that, to have a full orgasm, how do we have that conversation and and that transition and to to bring whatever it takes to have the ultimate pleasurable experience for all to the bedroom Right?
Speaker 3:This is great because we've come full circle. So I said earlier, like, the thing I say to men is you know, the sex that you're going for, that you're trying to convince her to have with you, isn't very good sex and the sex that you could be having is so much better than what you're having. And, believe me, you know, if you put the time and effort into like having it be as pleasurable for her as it is for you, you will enjoy it so much more than you even can imagine. So that's the thing I say to men.
Speaker 3:And I also have to say yeah it's going to take about 10 times as much attention on her as what you're putting in. The thing I say to her is keep in mind that you're not just, yes, you are being an advocate for you and your pleasure, and that's important, that is absolutely important and you need to do that. But it's not you against him. You are advocating for sex. That's going to be better for both of you. You're actually making him a very pleasurable offer. It's not like you know he doesn't know it, but the ask that you're making of him is going to be of service to both of you. It's going to get both of you into the territory. That is as much better for him as it is for you.
Speaker 3:And if you can keep that in mind when you're facing the discomfort of saying the thing, and also keep in mind what you've heard on on this, this episode of at least two men saying no, actually, we actually want to know, and at least, like we don't know, I don't know, like I don't know you're you know. So this random audience member's I don't know what he's going to do, but at least take the chance of like, given the, the, what society has told you, the way to behave you know. At least give it a chance of leaning into the discomfort of saying stuff that you've been told not to say and actually, and actually make a stand for yourself to see if you actually are with someone who is at least 51%. I'm really glad you're talking about this and, yes, I do want to learn how your body works. At least test it instead of assuming that you're doing the right thing by protecting his ego. So, as a woman, is what I said helpful? I'd like to know Is that helpful?
Speaker 1:I really have to be fair in this because I don't want to say I'm not an ordinary woman, but I'm a little more vocal than most, so I'm hoping that it helps. I just to be honest, I know women and I know it's all connected. We've just been so deeply ingrained to. You know it's hard for us to speak up for pay, it's hard for us to speak up for everything. And now, with this intimacy, if we see, I think it's helpful if we say that it's all connected. It's all connected with us loving ourselves.
Speaker 1:Part of loving ourselves is loving our body, and a healthy body is a sexually active body because it's a part of our physical health and I think, if we keep looking at that and put that in a more of a light for women to see it from, this is this is part of you owning who you are and and and you in your womanhood.
Speaker 1:Yes, and for men, I think it has to be where, if you really want a pleasurable experience, you have to be open for feedback on both sides. You know, a man should be able to say to his partner this is how I please me, and a woman not take offense to it, because we say it. Everyone speak in love and kindness, Because what one person's body needed you could be Toby and I were both married for a long period of time what our partners needed, then we may not need but to be able to, with love and kindness, show up as our full self and say this is me, this is my body, all of it. Take it or leave it, but this is what my body needs. And for him. For me, because I love him and I want the ultimate expression leave that Because I'm honest and transparent. Then now he's comfortable and transparent and he knows.
Speaker 1:I won't use it against him. This is not a power dynamic. This is about us really and truly loving each other. I want to have the best experience.
Speaker 2:So much of this comes back to just the ultimate need for self-confidence, right? I mean and we talk about self-confidence in the workplace, we talk about self-confidence in relationships you have to feel confident enough that in not only your own self, but to allow somebody else to give you feedback that, as you said 49, you might not like and you might have to recognize that. Hey, you know this isn't necessarily just about about me, so, but what I wanted to ask you because there's obviously is a physiological piece to this. Men's sex drives and women's sex drives are, from what I can tell from research, quite different. So as men age, you know we see there's a decrease.
Speaker 2:I think you even mentioned to yourself I'm 60 as well. You said you were 60. You know our sex drives tends to decrease. Women's sex drive tends to do all kinds of various things during the course of their lives. We hear all kinds of jokes about nursing homes and how crazy women are, the old ladies are at nursing homes and all that kind of stuff. What you really haven't heard about that? No, okay, we're going to do a perch on crazy women in nursing homes, okay.
Speaker 1:What does it have to do with sex and intimacy at the nurse's home?
Speaker 2:Because there's a drive difference. Physiologically, people change. Men as they get older, slow down Women as they get older. Maybe pick up a little bit, and I was going to ask about that. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, you talked about cabbage.
Speaker 1:I can't talk about physiological. No, I didn't know if you had some nursing home data.
Speaker 2:Well, let me tell you home stories that make your hair curl.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry I was lost Go. Don't worry, I'm sorry, it's all right.
Speaker 2:So, is physiological issues, an issue to deal with as well.
Speaker 3:There are. But I have this rule and my rule is like your body is always right. Like your body trumps everything else. Everything else like it. Like. If a woman, if a woman is judging her body about, like she, she, she, she wants to have an orgasm through interperson, it just what. It isn't. No, this is no the body. The body is like ground truth. That's like. That's like your body never, never gets it wrong. And so you know, as we age, maybe we have. You know, we don't get erect as often. We better know how to have delicious sex that doesn't require me to have an erection, or else that's going to be a gating factor.
Speaker 3:I don't really know the statistics on whether men's sexual libido drops off more than women. I don't know those statistics. I can tell you for me, something kind of interesting and amazing, like having my testosterone drop off hasn't been a bad thing for me. It's actually been. I actually like it, and I'll tell you why. That might sound crazy, but I'll tell you why. First of all, the background is I don't have a lot of judgment about whether I get hard or not. I'm happy with the amount that I get hard. I'm happy with how long it takes for me to ejaculate. I don't have judgments about that. Occasionally I don't have an erection when my partner would like me to be inside of her, but it's not a big deal. So that's the background.
Speaker 3:But I used to have this like ambient, like when I was next to a woman or talking to a woman, there was this screaming in my voice about sexual you know. Like my body would just light up and I had to like ignore that and that little screaming in my voice, enough to actually put my attention on this human being and connect with her in ways that did. That weren't about me trying to get into her pants. That was going on for most of my life.
Speaker 3:As my, as my testosterone has dropped off all these skills I had to quote unquote work on as a man to actually be able to connect with a woman, a human being to human being, became natural. I didn't have that screaming in my voice and what's happened with my sex drive is that it is now responsive. So when my wife is turned on, I get turned on. Like her turn on stokes my turn on on, like when, like her turn on stokes my turn on, and so there isn't any like, there may be a like I said there may be a little bit of. There may be occasionally like she, she, we were both, we both kind of quote unquote, hoped I would get hard and I didn't, and so it was like, okay, well, I guess we're done because I trust my body.
Speaker 3:My body is saying no, it doesn't want to be inside of her today, and I'm like, okay, my body doesn't want to be inside of you today and I'm like, okay, my body doesn't want to be inside of you, that's all we know, there's no arguing with that. And so my sex now is much more responsive to her sex. So when she's lit up, I get lit up. That's my new. Where my sex drive comes from is from her.
Speaker 2:That's my personal experience, right my sex drive comes from is from her. That's my, that's my personal experience, right? So a couple that listens to this and it kind of piques their interest, what are some steps that they can take to to improve their, their intimacy, to take the next step to rekindle that relationship?
Speaker 3:Okay, have the conversation before the conversation. So say hey, I listened to this episode. It got me thinking. I'd like to talk to you about how our sex has been and how it could be. Are you interested in having that conversation? Sure, I'd love to. So that's step one have the conversation before the conversation. To just open the topic. Open the conversation, Then there might be things that you know like something you're going to have to say to your partner that isn't going to be fun for you to say and isn't going to be fun for them to hear. Or, if you're a guy, you know it might be.
Speaker 3:I've been really enjoying our sex and I've been trying to get you to have more sex with me and you've been like and I know you're, you've been kind of resistant. I'd like to actually take the pressure off of you and start asking you questions about what you like and what you don't like. And we're only gonna. I I made this rule with my, with my wife. I said from now on, we're only going to do things that feel good to your body. I don't care whether I don't care whether we're having sex and I'm like 10 seconds away from from climaxing. If it doesn't feel good to you, we stop. That's how, that's how dedicated I was, that's how dedicated I was to let's find out what your body likes.
Speaker 3:So as a man, you can say I'm actually interested in in slowing down a little bit and finding out what you actually like. I have a feeling if we were doing things you liked, you might want to do it, and as a woman you can. You can say there's some things that I haven't been totally honest with you or that I've been kind of keeping to myself. I know it's probably going to sting, it's not going to feel good to me either to say it, but can we have this conversation? Can we have a conversation that's more honest than we've ever had before? Can we do that and then just see where it goes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's, and I don't know if it's part of the climate where people seem to be very hung up about sex in general. I mean, I've lived in Europe for several years, I travel back and forth. There seems to be a very different stigma here in the United States when it comes to sex and and and I don't know what that is and I don't know whether we can, you know, trace that back to cultural things. But but is there? Is there? I don't know, and I don't know if you've had any experience from an international perspective. Are we just a culture that's hung up about sex?
Speaker 3:we just a culture that's hung up about sex? Yeah, yes, the answer to that is yes, we're we. We in america are, have all kinds of hang-ups that that are that like. I've been to, to parts of europe too. Now I don't want to make blanket statements, but there is more kind of mature and relaxed attitude to sex that we could benefit from if we took some of that on.
Speaker 1:For sure, Another point too, because it didn't even cross my mind until I heard this. So, especially for the longest, America was a predominantly Christian society, you know, but we still more predominant religious based society. With that being said, what you hear and it connect with me when a young lady said this is on another talk show once she was like well, if you spend your whole life being told sex is bad, it's the bad, it's the devil, you're not supposed to do it, it's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad and all of these negative connotations about sex. And then they tell you but after you get married, all things are lawful. So but no, I think we need to think about that as society. I think we really need to think about that. Because she goes now. I didn't get married till my 40s, so if I remained a virgin and this particular woman had, how do I turn off 40 years of this magic snake is gonna kill me and that's what the penis was.
Speaker 1:It's like oh my god, oh, the snake stay away from me and then now all of a sudden, I say I do, and in the middle of the night you come with this. You know this serpent and it's trying to attack me and it's like how do? I tell my brain and I think we dismiss that and I'm joking, but I'm being totally serious when you know when we wrong something for so long how do you make it right?
Speaker 1:how do you then, overnight, like that I said I do, or whatever the case may be, and let go of all of that? And and now? Not only is the thing I was taught to fear, now you're telling me, as an intimacy coach or a husband or a wife or whatever relationship is, I should enjoy it. That's psychologically fucked up.
Speaker 3:I can't think of another word to say yeah, yeah, this isn't overnight, this isn't overnight like. This is. This is we're going to start the conversation. Well, I, I, I tend to work with long-term committed couples. That's my favorite. That's my favorite to work with is people who have real skin in the game and their goal is to actually have their relationship be good long term. So this is the start of a conversation.
Speaker 3:We are going to spend the rest of our lives having this conversation and and having it get progressively better over time. But we're just going to start the conversation because, oh my god, think about that same that all for experimentation, you know, pre-experiment experiment. I think people should be having sex like I. I think that's the only way to really learn. But that woman that you described, who has that deep-seated stuff, is going to take a long, a long time with a partner who is caring and attentive, and so she can confront that, that snake that's going to attack her over time, and discover, no, it's not scary like that, that that's not going to get healed, that has, or I'll say this that has the best chance of getting healed over time with a long-term partner where she actually cultivates something different.
Speaker 1:And speaking of long-term, if I could add one more thing I think that that's a huge relationship issue too is because we take longevity for granted.
Speaker 1:Meaning when you're in a relationship it was like, oh, I've been with him five years, 10 years, 20. I know him, I know this woman like the back of my hand, I know this man like the back of my hand. That is a lie, because our bodies are changing through all of this my body in my 20s, not my body my 30s, and not my body and my 40. And I think if we approach it from that saying, let your ego go and saying you don't know my body, you know my spirit and you may know my heart, but my body and your body like you just talked about libido and things is ever-changing. So if we can see it from that perspective, let our egos go and keep checking in and do wellness check to say and stop assuming perspective. Let our egos go and keep checking in and do wellness check to say and stop assuming that you know, oh, I know her, I know him.
Speaker 1:No you don't you know, and that's when people start faking too, so I think that's a good way to look at it.
Speaker 2:For the people that I want to get as we start to wrap up here. You know I just wanted to talk. If somebody wants to kind of start to self-educate, are there? Are there good publications? You mentioned us an institute. Are there good websites for people to go to to start kind of?
Speaker 1:I'll go to ken.
Speaker 2:He does intimacy yeah, but to just start to kind of do some self-reflection what, what are some of the good tools or resources out there that are at disposal for either a man or a woman to start that inner reflection before they have that difficult question?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so check out. I'll name a few places or people that I love and learn from myself. So check out the Gottman Institute, g-o-t-t-m-a-n Institute they're great. Check out Esther Perel P-O-T-T-M-A-N Institute they're great. Check out Esther Perel P-E-R-E-L. She's amazing in this topic. Check out my blog. Go to mediumcom and look up Craft of Intimate Coupledom. You can read all the stuff that I've been writing about.
Speaker 1:You can read all the stuff that I've been writing about, so you know there's definitely resources out there where you can start to learn more and discover Excellent. I think it's important, just like we're now talking about mental health like never before, and it's a great thing. I think our physical health has, you know, always been at the forefront, and this is part of our physical health too. And reach out to you. You have great coaching. I've seen your testimonies. I went through your stories. I think you know it's my understanding we only get one go around in this thing called life, and so I can't speak to the afterlife and all that.
Speaker 3:I've never been there, if I have I, you know, maybe I am.
Speaker 1:I know Right, but while we're here, I think we owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our bodies, we owe it to our partners to be the best us that we can be while we're here. So you know, we get one ride on this train. Let's ride it till the wheels fall off there you go. Again thank you.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. It was a pleasure getting a chance to talk to you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely Best of wishes, best of luck and take care. Good chatting, yeah, all right, take care. Good chatting, yeah, all right. So we perch again. Take care. Thanks everybody, bye, be well.
