Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
Welcome to the Perch Podcast Channel: The Thoughtful Pause Podcast
Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent Harm, a philosophy inspiring meaningful conversations. Hosted by Tricia Porter and Toby Malbec, seasoned business professionals and life partners, this podcast blends decades of expertise with a mission to foster understanding. Guided by the belief that where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do, they explore how experiences shape perspectives and how expanding our worldview fosters empathy.
From different races, worlds, and viewpoints, Tricia and Toby tackle complex topics with curiosity and a commitment to positive change. Unafraid of controversy, they challenge listeners to embrace a higher perspective and see differences as opportunities for connection. Whether seeking personal growth or a fresh lens on life, Perch is more than a podcast—it’s a mission. Join us to pause, reflect, and rise to higher ground.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
The Power of Empathy in Rule-Breaking
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🎬 New Video Podcast Episode: The Power of Empathy in Rule-Breaking 🎬
Exploring Gender Stereotypes in Risk-Taking and Career Progression
In this illuminating episode, we explore the transformative role of empathy in challenging gender stereotypes and promoting bold career choices.
Inspired by the insightful words of Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, "Well-behaved women seldom make history," we offer a deeper understanding of what it takes to break free from traditional norms and forge a path to success.
Watch now to gain valuable insights into breaking barriers and leading with courage.
Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more empowering discussions!
#podcast #empathy #rulebreakers #riskmanagement #careerprogression #genderstereotypes #breakfree #
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
Rule Breakers
Speaker 1Greetings . First Family Welcome . Today's show is . I always get excited , but this one I'm going to call it . I'm going to call it before we get started . I'm going to call this is my favorite Until next week . No , no , no , Until now . So our topic . Before I get to our topic , just a few housekeeping . I'll make it quick and short . This is . I apologize last time for being inconsistent . We've been in transition , so we're heading back to Michigan . So this is our last podcast in Alabama until October . So we'll be saying farewell to our lovely friend Phil here and his amazing studio until we meet again . But , perch , family , I will start doing and I'm saying it now and now I'm putting it out there .
Speaker 1I got to do it small shorts to keep it consistent . Small , yeah , I mean not doing like the full anyway , anyway , doing shorts , put it out there and keep it consistent so it'll probably just be me okay focus , okay focus school .
Speaker 2Is it okay ? We're ready . Gotta play by the rules yes , speaking of rules .
Speaker 1Today's topic today is rule breaker . You know , I feel like what's this song ?
Speaker 2that's pat benatar . That's what phil's singing earlier . Yes , it is , it is indeed . Yes , it is heartbreaker dream maker . Yes , yes , that's that's no . Phil was singing earlier . That's not Pat Benatar , isn't it ? No , it is Pat Benatar . Yes , it is . It is indeed Heartbreaker . Yes , it is Heartbreaker . Dream Maker . Dream Maker . Yes , that's Pat Benatar .
Speaker 1No , it was not a black person .
Speaker 2You can't put that to Luther .
Speaker 1Vandross . Normally it's a black person . Exactly , I'm pretty Rule breaker .
Speaker 2Like these socks ? Look at that . Oh , I agree , rule breaker .
Speaker 1Sorry , we do not do . We don't do drugs at all , I don't know what's going on with this show today , but the subject is rule breaker .
Speaker 1So , with intention , I want to talk about this and typically I really try , with intention , to walk the line , try to be , when we talk politics , bipartisan . We talk about everything . Try to be in the middle row , not calling anyone out , but on this particular perch , I'm calling out women today and it's really a challenge because I'm curious . The first thing and I want to ask you guys to ask yourselves , when we said today's topic was rule breaker , what was the first thing that came to your mind ? So , before we get into that , I want to let you know I have a shocking , a different way of looking at it and before I get to someone else who kind of well , I'll just say this part and then I'll kick it to you , toby Be clear though You're talking about rules , not laws , right ?
Speaker 2Do you have that in your ? How do I have to be ? Did I say law breaker ? Do you have that in your ? How do I have to be ? Did I say lawbreaker ? Well , everybody seems to go to laws . They go . I'm not a rule breaker . I always do the speed limit and you're like that's the laws , not the rules . Back to you .
Speaker 1So he asked me about be clear about something I never stated . So I'll be clear that I never stated lawbreaker , I stated rule breaker , great call out .
Speaker 1So and I was thinking , I saw I have the way that I kind of see it what it meant to me and I had a divine revelation . I'll share that towards the end . But there's a TED Talk by Cindy Eckert called the DNA of Rule Breaker and Cindy went on to say and this is her definition , give you a little context of who Cindy Eckert is . Cindy is the woman you give credit for creating the female Viagra . That's her claim to fame . She actually was one of the 28 inventors of the male Viagra . She was one of that . She sold that off and she created the female . Don't want to get down the rabbit hole , I don't even want to Call out to .
Speaker 1Cindy , Call out or shout out Toby .
Speaker 2Either way .
Speaker 1Oh my God , I don't even want to go . You kill me using terms and then don't apply them . They work for me Because you don't follow the rules .
Speaker 2I'm a rebel without a clue .
Speaker 1Without a clue , not a cause . Oh my God .
Speaker 2Stay on topic here . It's hard Toby because you're like a toddler . It's like driving with a blindfold on . You know how you take a toddler out of public , but you can't take your eyes off .
Speaker 1The really can't enjoy yourself . Are you out ?
Speaker 1exactly oh , my god . Anyway , the only reason I said that ? Because she went on to state that there's two types of rule breakers . Hear me out on this one those who break the rules for personal gain and those who break the rules to change the game . So , with that being said , she went on also to state and specifically call out women . She , she said her research and her study shows that when women break the rules , typically typically their dna is empathy driven . So when they break the rules , empathy typically applies and that means that normally they're doing it because , like fight for justice or to speak up for the little guy or to stand up for other women . So that's typically the under the guys that she stated women are rule breakers . I have my own . I agree with a lot that she says , but I have my own view . But before I go there , toby , what say you ?
Speaker 2Well , again , not knowing where this is going to go . First of all , shout out to the Florida Panthers . It has nothing to do with rules , but Florida Panthers in the conference finals again , whoop , whoop . Once they make the conference finals , we're going to be rocking the Panthers jersey Just wish they weren't in Florida .
Speaker 1Oh , stop it . Anyway , go go , Stop it .
Speaker 2So , anyway , a couple of things that I think are important . You've already made the distinction between rules and laws . And rules , everybody says that rules are made to be broken , and I would argue rules are made to be revisited , and in fact I want to use a sports analogy Every year , all the major sports teams revisit their rules . Rules are not made to be static , they're not made to just be left out there without being challenged . So every year , the National Hockey League , the NBA , major League Baseball changes the rules , and not necessarily small . I mean Major League Baseball . You know , put in a pitch clock so you have to pitch faster , so the game would move faster . So they set a rule to try to meet an ends , and then what they'll do is they'll go evaluate it to see if it works , and society should be the same way . The only other thing I would say is people love to talk about . I'm a rule breaker , I'm a change agent , I'm I'm a disruptor .
Speaker 1I'm a disruptor .
Speaker 2I put two pieces of cheese on my cheeseburger . I mean stop it . You know , I didn't park between the lines , I actually put the tire on the line because I'm a disruptor . I mean all of this stuff is hogwash . I mean there are , there , are there are people that are disruptors , and then the other 98 of people that are like , I tied my shoes differently . I'm a change agent .
Speaker 1Oh go , anyway , go ahead back to you jim , okay , you , you sure you got it out , because I don't know , it took me a little punchy .
Speaker 2That's why today is sponsored by mountain dew . So anyway , I wish I wish coke sponsorship .
Speaker 1Um , so I do I . I I wish it was that simple . But what ? What I do ? The reason why ? So I'll give you some context .
Speaker 1I've really been struggling with this because , like you said , major difference between a lawbreaker and a rule breaker . But there is no definition for a rule breaker . Let's just start . There is literally no definition for a rule breaker , so it's some crap that somebody made up and someone made up and gave it meaning . So therefore , when I hear I want to get her name right Cindy Acker , when she says , well , women break the rules for different reasons , I get that Working in corporate America .
Speaker 1You see it all the time . You see some people , and it's typically men , it's not women . You see it all the time , you know you . You see some people , and it's typically me , and it's not women . And and and typically , when you see women who are treacherous in corporate America , what I've seen and of course , I haven't seen all the corporate America is they bought into that belief . They bought into the belief that I have to have these male traits in order to succeed . I can't be authentically who I'm created to be . So I , I have to be like a man , you know , to be out there , and then there's people like me .
Speaker 1So I am the type of person that I am a rule follower to a certain extent , meaning I follow the law and then I speed , so then I don't follow , I don't follow , I do , and I know that I do . So I can't say , you know , I was like , well , I'm not a thief , I don't steal , I don't do all those things . But when I do break the rules , from a legal perspective , normally I'm going a little . I got a heavy foot , okay , that's still , but where I realize that one the reason why I say I'm calling out women specifically , because what I do accept the fact that and Cindy didn't state this level , because she , she call it empathy and I'm going to call it something else I think we all have a North Star .
Speaker 1I think we just do . We all have it and if we choose to pay attention to our inner compass , that guides us . But what I see more than anything and women , that's listening , challenge yourself and dig in yourself and see where this lines up with you what I'm about to say . We have most of the time , if you're a woman and you're in business , especially in corporate america , consistently we've sat in rooms and didn't agree what things they say , but we don't speak up , you know , and if we do speak up , it's normally after the collective have spoken up . We need two or three other people to speak up before we're the first one to put ourselves out there .
Speaker 1I have sat in plenty of rooms where you know I'm a woman and other women turn to me and say you know , I couldn't have said that and kept my job . I couldn't have done that and kept my job . So the same things men are applauded for doing , women are typically sometimes bastardized , you know , for doing it . So therefore we have been conditioned to believe that . You know , being a rule breaker is a bad thing .
Speaker 2I'm going to challenge that one .
Speaker 1And so before you challenge it , let me just say this so if there is no definition , if it's not in the dictionary , if Merriam-Webster didn't say because if you look up breaker , everything is in a dictionary , icebreakeram-webster didn't say because if you look up breaker , everything is in a dictionary . Ice breaker there was some . It was some different . I was like I thought it was slang and it was all kinds of breakers in addiction Heart breaker , house breaker . I was like what's a house breaker ? I was like all of these things .
Speaker 2Circuit breaker .
Speaker 1But not , but not a rule breaker , and that's because these are man-made rules and if you're a woman and I'm going there if these are man-made rules and you are a woman , the minute you don't acquiesce , you're a rule breaker .
Speaker 2My turn . Yes , okay , I have a lot more to say . Oh , I know you do . No , you do , but we've got to correct this first of all .
Speaker 1Correct it , of course , or don't have to correct it . No , oh , we don't have to correct it no , you just have to make your .
Speaker 2Women are by nature agreeable creatures and men , by nature are disagreeable creatures .
Speaker 1I disagree , but anyway Big shot .
Speaker 2And so women prefer to be agreeable . If you look at the way women resolve conflict , it's through less aggressive means than men resolve conflict by and large .
Speaker 1Can I just ask you a question about that , though ? Why do you call it nature though ?
Speaker 2Because I think we are naturally wired that way . Women are nurturers and men are not .
Gender Stereotypes in Business and Society
Speaker 2So women , by nature , tend to be more compromising and agreeable . It's what I've said from the beginning . I think women should be the politicians of the world and run the world because they're , by nature , more agreeable and more willing to compromise . Where men are more aggressive and they're like I have to have it my way and that's the way it works . So where I'm going with this is , for whatever reason American business covets that , go get them .
Speaker 2Tiger aggressive nature , bend the rules if you have to break them . Okay , you know that kind of thing . And when women are by nature agreeable , it's one of the reasons , in my humble opinion , that women don't climb the ladder as quickly as men do , because the trait of being aggressive and sticking your neck out there and doing those things is a coveted trait , whether we like it or not . In business we look at people , you know . You look at some of the people that we revere in American business and they're the ones that were trailblazers . They broke this rule and they changed that , and they did this and and they changed that and they did this . And so I think that , by nature , women don't move up the ladder as quickly . One of the reasons . There are obviously a lot more , but that they tend to be , by nature , compromisers and more agreeable , and for whatever reason , in American business we covet people that break the rules .
Speaker 2So , there you have it .
Speaker 1The only thing I have to say is because it's your opinion and just like mine . We're both entitled to it . Entitled to it , but but where I , where I ? What I have to say is you can't say nature because scientifically , because when you say nature , nature is tied to science and it's it's based on scientific evidence . Scientifically , what we know for sure about learned behaviors , there's only two that would come and we all come here with . There's no scientific evidence . There's something in the , the , in the gene of a girl that says she's going to do this . As far as traits , character traits , there's nothing . We come here scientifically with the same two fears , that's , the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises . So if you take an infant and you go like this , you'll see that infant shape , because that's what we came here with , and loud noises . If you make a loud noise , a newborn baby is . If they hearing it . Just just hear me out for a second I'm going to ask you one question just going to jump .
Speaker 1So scientifically , those sheer traits are the only thing we come here with .
Speaker 2Everything else is learned behavior what scientifically , when it comes down to traits ?
Speaker 1and we're not talking about physicality we're talking about from simply behavior and trait .
Speaker 2I would ask one simple question if men had to raise children , how many would get past the age of three ?
Speaker 1but that's no .
Speaker 2I'm gonna take the over under about five but we get past the age of three . But because men don't have the tolerance , they're aggressive , they can't . They don't have the tolerance , they're aggressive , they don't have that capability . I believe inherently Now there are obviously men that are wonderfully loving and caring .
Speaker 1Tell it to all the single fathers that raise kids from infancy .
Speaker 2I believe that they have to do their very best and step outside of their comfort zone to do those things . In most cases , I would argue , that does not come naturally .
Speaker 1I hate to tell you this Newsflash and women cannot like it . You know it's being a mother does not necessarily come with maternal instincts , it's . I know women personally who aren't maternal . They just aren't and they will tell you that . And again , these are all .
Speaker 2I won't say stereotypes , but for the most part , if you took a men and 100 women and you studied them intensely , you would find that men , by nature , are more prone to make snap decisions , prone to aggression , prone to more violent behavior , than women are . And again , I didn't do any scientific analysis of that , but there seem to be enough scientific things out there that support that . And all I'm saying is that that's why men , by nature , tend to be more rule breakers . And , quite honestly , women complain about men being rule breakers , but they could do it themselves , but it isn't in their nature to do so .
Speaker 1No . So again , because we don't argue , we perch right .
Speaker 2Right . So perch on this , and I'm perching higher than she is too .
Speaker 1Perch on this . You know , and I've done another , when I did a talk with other women before and it was on the the way we raised typically depend on society where you live . You're bringing boys . I typically , historically it's gotten a lot better raised , different from girls . Girls are raised and it's getting better .
Speaker 1But for centuries , to be safe , to be safe , what it is Don't jump , don't be a lady , be pristine , right , right , and that's the way they are raised . Boys were raised to be risk takers , go to the highest point of the monkey bar and jump off , do all of these things . So , therefore , when it comes down to breaking the rules , you literally and I'm going to state this and I wrote this down , and I'm going to state this , and I wrote this down , and I did not want to lose this thought because I know this may be controversial and that's not my point , it's just food for thought I believe that you are designed , we are designed to win . This is for women . I'm speaking to women when I say this you are designed to win , but you are programmed to lose .
Speaker 2I would rephrase that to your team , but that's my phrase .
Speaker 1I know Now . Don't rephrase my phrase . Come up with your own phrase .
Speaker 2I would just say , women are not even competing .
Speaker 2Because , they're not willing to take a risk . When it comes to things like that , they conform . By nature , women tend to conform , and that's a challenge , not all . Again , you've said it before You've had women come to you and say why don't you say something ? Why don't you say something ? Because they look at you as more of an alpha female . But women , by nature , tend to be passive and do not challenge those things as much as men do , and that's why men are considered go-getters . And again , this is a stereotype that we have to get past in this country , because a man who breaks the rules is looked at as a go-getter , a climber , and a woman who breaks the rules is considered what Difficult .
Speaker 2It's a horrible stereotype , but Jordan Peterson did an interesting piece about this where he said there are like 10 traits that make men more successful than women and they tend to be traits that are more aggressive traits and that , by nature , is why men tend to progress through organizations at a higher rate than women . And you can argue with them . I think they make a lot of sense , but they're not , of course .
Speaker 1Oh , I am trying not to swear at you , Jesus .
Speaker 2No , go for it . Knock yourself out .
Speaker 1Because what ? So ? What we're not going to do is the fact that . So let's speak truth to power , because men create these rules , corporations , men rule the world , they run the world . That's just a fact . From a financial standpoint , from a corporate standpoint , they are the leaders . So these fake rules were created by men . Now rules are fake . Yeah , because we just talked about it . Well , okay , I'll do away with the word fake and I'll meet you where you are . You said that rules were meant to be changed .
Speaker 2Yes , they are so these changeable rules .
Speaker 1Is that better ?
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 1So these evolving rules ?
Speaker 2whatever makes you happy , Perfect makes me happy .
Speaker 1Because I'm all about making you happy .
Speaker 2That's right , because you're the man . Oh , stop it Anywho .
Speaker 1What are you making for dinner ? You really don't want to eat anything . I'm cooking tonight , so are you going to trust ?
Speaker 2me , so this will be my last episode .
Speaker 1It's been great talking to you .
Speaker 1You made me lose my train of thought . I was really upset . No , because so . Men are the creator of these rules . Because we've already said one there's no such thing . This , there's no definition .
Speaker 1So when you look up and you google rule breaker on the internet , you get all these Outlandish reasons of what a rule rule breaker is , and most of them were written by men too . So and then so if you get some , if you're them , if you are the one in power , that means you get to move the goalposts whenever you feel like it . You get to say now , this applies , and that's why , all of a sudden , in business , you know , disruption became a sexy thing . I'm a disruptor and a false . I'm a disruptor , and there's a definition for disruptor .
Speaker 1It was never a positive one , you know so , but I'm saying you get to make the rules . So therefore , comma , if you , in turn , as a man , can't say to a woman well , the reason women don't succeed and the reason women struggle , or the reason women is because they don't possess these traits , and what I'm saying is they possess all of those traits . I am everlast one of those things . I can be aggressive , I could be docile , I could be passive , I could let a lot go . I can stand firm , I could do all of these things , but one thing I know is there is a level of intimidation when women show up in the same capacity that men do .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1So then , in turn , if you know that and if you agree with that , how then do you say to a woman , to America , to whoever's listening , you know there is a reason why . And put that on women and not put it on the men that created these rules .
Speaker 2No , but there's still a great deal . There's a great deal a modicum of sexism in a lot of corporate businesses . Well , you're in supply chain . I mean , I can't think of one that is more dominated by old white men than supply chain . And so a message of an aggressive businesswoman pushing back against the rule or challenging , you know , the status quo , is not as well received there as , say , in the apparel industry , where there's a lot more dominant female executives who have done that and have actually molded that industry in such a manner .
Speaker 2And that's why , again , you know , I know we're not talking about , you know , equality here in this conversation , but more about rule breaking . But there are greater achievements that are made across different industries based on how they're dominated , and you said it before , most of these rules have been made over the years by men , but there have been greater forays into changing those by women to more , I would say , more sensible in many cases in those industries where women have been highly successful in reaching executive levels . So there you go , that's my story and I'm sticking to it .
Speaker 1Yeah , but where is the accountability ? But this is I don't . It's not that I'm trying to be combative , this is what I know for sure . So let me just let me make it personal and put my and I'll take the hits for this one . What I know for sure is , even in business , I've been in corporate America for 30 years and I'm seen in a lot of different lights , but one consistent light is , you know , sometimes like being aggressive . I've heard that multiple times and in each time I have to say this I said how am I aggressive ? First of all , I'm in business . I don't yell , I'm not swearing , I'm literally asking questions . I'm literally looking for clarity in a statement . I've come with solutions . Where is the aggression ? But I think you're making my point .
Speaker 2You've had a career in supply chain in an industry dominated by older white men . So when you act in a way that another industry might look at you as being a change agent , a real change agent but they look at that as a threat to the status quo .
Speaker 1But when I'm showing up in the same capacity as the man that you want to make your leader like , oh you know , he take charge , he solutions Right .
Speaker 2So when I possess these , same traits . In that industry .
Speaker 1And I don't come . And this is the part that I need you to see , because when you make statements about why women aren't successful , and that's just your opinion . It is , and I want to clean it up , because so be . I could see a lot of women pissed off at you right , that's okay , but no , no , no letters coming no , and the reason why I say that is because I know you and I know your character .
Speaker 1But what I do have to say is that saying is because that that's what women are often told . Women are often told well , you know , you just have to , and there are some , some data to support what you say . So I'm not going to lie . There are some data that say women are typically less likely to ask for a raise , they're less likely to speak up .
Speaker 2All of that's factual and true . So you're not saying those things , you're saying are absolutely fact .
Speaker 2And don't make this sound like it's a bad thing either Women are much more empathetic . They show more empathy than men do . They make better depending on the jobs and the opportunities . As I said before , I think , politically speaking and we're not going into politics I think women are by far more stable emotionally and in terms of being willing to compromise and meet halfway than men will ever be , and so this is not , by any stretch of imagination , a dig on women at all . In fact , a lot of those traits I covet . I wish I had that same ability to be empathetic in cases where I see other people doing so . And again , these are not with all men or with all women , but there are certain industries where women have been highly successful and they've shown that they've been capable of making changes , and other organizations and other industries not so quickly .
Speaker 1That's all I'm trying to say of making changes , and other organizations and other industries not so quickly . That's all I'm trying to say and you know , and for that , because we've been on air , I just want to call out because your last statement led me into another point I wanted to make too , because what you said is an absolute fact Some rules only apply in certain industries , in certain areas , and there are certain other industries that totally break them all . Perfect example factually , hollywood breaks more rules than any other industry . For business and , case in point , what I want to say .
Speaker 1I looked this up so right now , in business , often not only do they want a bachelor's degree we say this all the time you see companies now wanting a master's , even PhD , like for what ? You're not a doctor or lawyer , whatever , and some of our rescinded , the top , top go-getters in hollywood are all high school dropouts . That's just a fact . Some of them barely want to , you know , and I and I even , with all fairness , kind of looked around and tried to give you know more entertainers than just actors
Breaking the Rules
Speaker 1or whatever . Giselle Bundchen dropped out of school at 14 . Ryan Gossett 17 . Cameron Diaz 16 . Nicole Kidman 16 . Beyonce , 15 . Jc just said he bounced around in a high school . We don't know what he did .
Speaker 2That thank god they're not working on the space for Lawrence .
Speaker 1Jennifer Lawrence 14 . Rihanna 16 . And it's billionaires in here Rihanna's a billionaire , Jay-Z is a billionaire , Beyonce close to a billionaire . Disney , Walt Disney , 16 . And so when people say you know this , and then you look back and I want to just do a quick comparison , because Jeff Bezos graduated summa cum laude from Princeton University , while Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard Slacker , but no , making a greater point about rule breakers , and this is important for us to hear because , first of all , and for women , in order for us to grow , we have to . And my doctor I won't say her name , and I told her I won't say her name and I'll bring this up . I just left her and I asked her . I said , when you hear , and and she's young and she's smart and she's just on , it just in her own practice and I said to her Toby , I hit you in the knee .
Speaker 2I heard you um I said to her .
Speaker 1I said my podcast today is about rule breaker . When you hear rule breaker , I'm not with you . When you hear rule breaker , what do you think ? And she immediately recoiled . She was like oh . And she was like and then she was like you know , if you ? And then she looked at me like I'm like like first of all , so I'm not gonna say your name . Second , if you don't want me to bring this up , I won't even bring it up . And she was like well , if you ask me that cuz she was like what a first thing came in my mind . It's like bad boy , someone that doesn't follow the rules , just okay . And then I said to her I said but you're a rule breaker . And she said she was like no , you would have been . You would have thought that I called her like oh , my god like this , you know , just a harlot or something ?
Speaker 1she was no , no , I followed I don't , I do . And she started talking all these legalities . I said that's a lawbreaker . I said the mere , the mere fact . Just think about it . And I really women , I really want you to hear me on this , really hear me . Just think about it .
Speaker 1Less than 50 years ago , it wasn't even you know , for women to work was something you know . It was like women . The rule is you stay home , raise the baby , care for the house , tender for that . That was the rule . So any person , any woman outside of that , where black women didn't have that option we've been working for that . We're tired , just by the way but any woman outside of that was considered a rule breaker .
Speaker 1So now this is where it's confusing and this is where , as women , we have to get over these stereotypes and these things that they put on us for saying and my thing is your rule is your , your north star , whatever your compass is , and and and . When you go against that , you know , then you're not being true to yourself . So , people , if someone tell you where , you know you're not a good girl and you know you wait your turn , or you speak what's spoken to , or you know , and even in business , the study shows and research said , even when women don't agree with something before they break the rules , and when they do speak up or when they're given credit , say you say hey , tricia , you won Employee of the Year , here's your award . You know what the rules , the studies say , women are turned around and do Give credit to a man that was in it .
Speaker 1Well , I can't take credit for this , you know . Thank you , but they have to find somebody . I think you're making my case for me . No , but I said I agree , I said some things . You said were absolutely Some things . Yeah , fact .
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely everything was .
Speaker 1Absolutely not . And I said you can't put some of these things on women because when they are the things that men are , that successful men are , it's not well received . So that part . So if you say one thing , received , so that part . So if you say one , thing and so one of the things that we have to recognize . So did I get off message .
Speaker 2You talk about truck to tractor tires or something over there . But I didn't quite you know handing out . Academy Awards and who went to college so that I didn't know what that had to do .
Speaker 1I was literally making it applying to how there's different rules for different areas of business . An actor you have to have two arms , two legs and be sexy .
Speaker 2I mean , what more than that ? No , but it's not just acting . I was just saying , I was agreeing with you .
Speaker 1You said supply chain had more of this , and then there's different rules for entertainment . That was , who manages that ?
Speaker 2So I don't know who manages Hollywood . I mean , there is no necessarily skill sets , I think , other than I said two arms is too much , I take my credit back .
Speaker 1I was just trying to get credit for something . Anyway , go At some point .
Speaker 2It will come back around . But all I was trying to get at before is that rules . There's a spectrum of rules , right ? So some rules are fairly serious and some rules are just quite casual . But we all live every day . Everything we do is a rule . We park between the lines when we're at an airline terminal . We queue up , you know , to go through security . We , you know , we wait patiently before our row number is called , all those kind of things . And those are just rules and you know , you always see people that break them . The other rules aren't meant for them . We joke about it all the time . The person has to get off the plane first because they're more important than anybody else . So people do break the rules . The question is , some rules are more egregious than others . Some rules could potentially put people's lives at risk . You know , if you open the , you know the door on an aircraft when it's up in the air , that's a rule you probably shouldn't want to break , you know .
Speaker 1But then there are other ones , like you know , unless you're on a new Boeing and they just automatically come off .
Speaker 2Exactly , it's a new feature of the Boeing aircraft , which is the instant parachuting feature . Yes , but I mean so . To me , rules should be constantly looked at , and you know , even like an airline's around the mind because I've been flying so much recently . But you know , you look at the way the airline industry works and Southwest Airlines is relooking their rules because they used to have a rule . In fact they still have a rule that says , if you call in advance and say that you need more time , special assistance to board the airplane , that you can get on first . Well , guess what people are doing ? People are calling in and saying you know , I have a hangnail , I need special assistance .
Speaker 1I'm sure they didn't say they have a hangnail .
Speaker 2You know , sometimes I see shadows in my eyes so I need to get on early . I see shadows in my eyes so I need to get on early .
Speaker 1I see dead people .
Speaker 2You know , I see dead people , I need to get on early , all these kind of things . And then they get on the list and all of a sudden , a person who has followed the rules is waiting in line and they say all the people that have special disabilities . And 6,000 people get on the plane . So what's happened ? People have found ways to break the system , break the rules , so now it's up to Southwest to now say okay , how do we put that back and get to the spirit of what we were trying to do and make it so that really only the people that need to do it do it . So that's why I said rules are ever-changing , they're evolutionary and we look at that in all forms of life . Rules that existed 20 years ago don't exist today , and so to me there is no problem with challenging rules , and I think anybody should be able to challenge rules .
Speaker 1So I'm going to have a squirrel moment and so I'm going to call my own stuff out like squirrel . I'm going to get off topic . I think it's funny as F If you guys , if you haven't looked at it , just Google Southwest airline people , seat holding and people have come up with the most creative ways to hold seats .
Speaker 2To break the rules .
Speaker 1So what they'll do is they'll pay to get on early . One person will pay and there'll be a big party and they'll put different things in a seat and say and somebody's sitting there .
Speaker 2I had a hip replacement a while ago and I was traveling through the airport with a cane and a guy came up to me and goes that's brilliant . So what do you mean ? It's brilliant , he goes . You probably get on the plane early , don't you ? And I said I could . He goes , I'm going to start traveling with a cane , I can get on early and I'm like so people find ways to break rules .
Speaker 1Well , this one lady you got to look for this . I could not stop laughing when I saw this . This one lady wanted to , because you know , Southwest , that you bring your bags on and the overhead you should put in the link for this video . It's very funny she got up and laid in the overhead . So nobody . First of all , good for you , I couldn't fit . Second of all , what the like , seriously . But anyway , back to the title , To my rule breaker .
Speaker 2Now back to our show .
Speaker 1That people go to some crazy ways . Breaking rules can be fine .
Speaker 2At times it could be dangerous , but there's never an issue with challenging the rules and the status quo , because the world is constantly changing . You know , 10 years ago we didn't have self-driving cars and so people say don't take your hands off the wheel . And now you watch commercials where they're going like this and watching the car . So it's like constantly having to challenge rules in our workplace and all that . And you know , I work in the restaurant industry and I'll walk into a restaurant and say why do you do things that way ? Well , we've always done things that way . It's this tribal knowledge that just gets handed down from year after year and you look at it and say , well , you know , there are probably easier ways to do it now . And people just fall into this trap of following rules . And sometimes it's healthy to challenge those , understanding that at the end of the day you may leave them the same , but it never hurts to revisit rules .
Speaker 1But what I'm afraid of and the reason why I chose to talk about this topic because I don't see rule breakers as necessarily a bad thing .
Speaker 2Not at all .
Speaker 1If you are standing up for justice , if you are standing up for yourself . If you don't speak for you , who will ? If you don't stand up for you , who will ? If you're in a position of leadership and you're a woman and you see things that you don't agree with , your voice is just as powerful as anyone else in this room . But I do have to say and I really because I didn't want to go there , but I wouldn't even be okay in my own spirit if I didn't go there and the reason why I say I'm really challenging women , because we are as women in America , we are watching things go reverse , back to our productive rights , but then DEI is diversity , equity and inclusion . Factually , women benefit from that more than anything . And then that's going away .
Speaker 1And so my thing is and these rules were made by men . So when men in corporations decided to make DEI a focus , to make DEI part of their corporate stance , and then the government and everything else . Corporations don't have to follow the government , especially if they're a private corporation , but they're choosing to do these things because , guess what ? We're not speaking up , we're not using our voices , we're not making ourselves heard , and it has to come for us , and so that's why we really have to look at this rule breaker in a more serious light now , because it's not a bad thing for if this is something you really believe in , and if this is something you really want , and if this is something you really want . If we don't , it starts with ourselves . If we don't stand up and and not worry about , um , going against the grain and not worry about and , and , because we're not doing it for the sake of , you know , just being rebel rousers .
Speaker 2We're doing it because we believe it's the right thing to do and the right thing to say , and I know we haven't done a podcast on DEI because I don't think anybody and again I don't want to go into DEI with a great degree , but I don't think anybody disagrees with the concept of DEI . There may be some questions about how it executes , but I think you're absolutely right by saying there's no problem with challenging rules and being that person to challenge them and understand and look at the world in a manner that says rules are meant to change and I don't want to say meant to be broken , you know , but are meant to change as we move along . And so is it right the way we evaluate , you know , scores or grades coming from high schools ? Is it fair to all people that they're evaluated on the same scale ? Is it fair that the way Harvard accepts their students ?
Speaker 2And what if all of a sudden Harvard says , just to take them as an example , you know , we're just going to take the top 50 scores across the country and those are not evenly distributed . Let's say that 80% of those are Asian , american and 5% are Caucasian and 15% are black . Is that good ? Or does that break a rule of DEI that says no , no , no , you've got to normalize that , you've got to take , you know . And so all of a sudden , rules can be challenging because they tend to sometimes get in the way of what you're trying to accomplish , and so I think we all need to be fair and not put names to programs instead of saying what we're trying to accomplish is we're trying to make sure that all people have opportunity equality of opportunity . We talked about this equality of opportunity versus outcome and not put together programs and rules that hamper that capability from occurring .
Speaker 1I'm lost . So you're saying a problem with DEI is that they put a name to it ?
Speaker 2No , but that it structures a and again . We're not going to talk about it in this program . You know what ? Let's just get out because it's too serious of a topic for us . Oh , we could talk about that for hours .
Speaker 1Yeah , but I do before we get out of here .
Women Redefining Success in Business
Speaker 1In my opinion , I made a really powerful statement without giving any context . So when I said to women you were designed to win , but you were programmed to lose , I know you could say that could mean a thousand things . Why would you say that I'm a woman all day long ? So that applies to me too , 24-7 . Meaning yes .
Speaker 1I don't take a day off . No , I don't . So I say you were designed to mean and the reason why I specifically address women on this is because we all are the architects of our own lives . We just start . You can choose not to . We all get to decide . You know , this is where I want to be and you can work towards all of this . We are the architects of our own lives .
Speaker 1So , by design , that life is what you make of it . Now , it doesn't mean because you're a woman , you're going to have extra obstacles . It doesn't mean you have to be three times better than men and do it in heels , going backwards . All of those factors are true , but still we have a hand in the design and the creation of what our world is going to look like and how it is . So that means and if you had to pick , I hope you pick a winning hand . So we are designed to win but programmed to lose . Meaning . We come here because we're women , you know . And we come here because we're women , you know . And we come here at a disadvantage . We come here with these , you know , less pay . We come here , that's just . These things are already the the . The minute you born as a woman is something that that's . Am I lying ?
Speaker 2I mean no , those facts , yes , but we can cover it . We literally don't have enough time to go into .
Speaker 1Don't open pandora's box with five minutes left so what I mean by saying your program to to lose is because , as you can see and this is a one-year , we did agree on it we kind of take on those tropes , we kind of you know , not , don't speak up . We kind of like you know , when we do do well , we turn around and give someone else credit . You know , credit , you know , and so that's a programming . That programming is at a deficit to us . So that's what I mean when you said , when I say you're designed to win but programmed to lose .
Speaker 1Because even when you show up as your authentic self and speaking your authentic voice , being a woman is off-putting to some men . It's like you know to like who are you to challenge me , or like you know who are you to question me or who are you to question me . I've gotten it my entire life and I was just saying this to my sister Monica . I said you know , I used to sit in church and I couldn't just sit in Bible study with everyone else because in a black church they like what we call call and response . So when a pastor say something , he expected amen . And so I think , oh , you're a smaller church and everybody's saying amen and you're just sitting there . Then you look like the defiant one , I look like the rule breaker and I was like I am not trying to break the rules . That was not amen worthy . I did not agree with you . Maybe an A , but not amen . I could say amen like , hey , what you talking about ? Because I don't get it .
Speaker 2Or lowercase amen .
Speaker 1But the point being , you know , and that's how I am wired , I was like I just you know . And they said , you know , the black church would tell you when they , at a certain time in church , they'll say stand on your feet and repeat after me , and I was like I don't even know what you're about to say , no , I'm not standing to my feet and I'm not .
Speaker 1And then so naturally I'm considered a rule breaker . I'm like no , it just make it make sense to me . You know , when it makes sense to me , I will follow the rules . Now , in business , this is what I would say to leadership all the time . I am never going to go against the final call , and if you're in charge and it's your call to make the final call , I am going to perform whatever it is you tell me to do . But if I don't agree and I think it's a better call , I will be the one to say you know what . You have the final say , but not just for the record . This is my vision and it's the way I see it , and I know that's just who I am that's considered being a rule breaker .
Speaker 2I was like no , Well , but I think there's change about if you look at organizations or movements like Conscious Capital , capitalism and greener organizations more friendly organizations . I spent several years of my career in retail and retail is dominated by senior executives who are women and sadly , and I mean this most sincerely .
Speaker 1I know where you're going .
Speaker 2Sadly , they act like men and it's horrible because it really brings to light the fact that women believe that to be successful , they have to act like complete assholes , like men do , and that's just so counterproductive . And it really taught me something and I said you know , women in retail don't act any differently than men in automotive or in technology or whatever . But it just seems so counter because we Toby , you know looks at women as being much more accommodating and inclusive and collaborative and all those things . And what we've taught people is to be successful in business , you have to be this dog-eat-dog , and I think we need to change that paradigm because there's now clearly case studies out there and data to support you don't have to behave that way in business . You can break rules and recreate them in a manner that makes the world and these organizations more inclusive , more collaborative and more successful . So I push back a little bit on what you said , which is women are geared to fail .
Speaker 1I didn't say geared to fail , I said programmed .
Speaker 2Programmed to fail To me in the current model . I think you're right . I think the model is changing and I think there are enough people that are now tired of that paradigm and are saying we need to change the rules on how we conduct business , how we treat people in our business , how we conduct how we , how we show up in the marketplace and all those things . And this is this is not revolutionary , it's evolution .
Speaker 1It's going to take a long time but but let me just say this , and I do have , I want to say this point . I have one more point and then we're out of here . Um , we're out of here . I do want to say about that , about it's changing , and it's changing do you believe it's changing .
Speaker 1I'm concerned , I do , I think and I hate to say it because it sounds cliche , but in my mind and my spirit right now I can't think two steps forward , two steps back , because we do . We can't acknowledge the fact that . How long has the WNBA been around ? And it takes someone like you know you have Asia Wilson , you have women who have been dynamic and fantastic but it takes someone like one of the main leaders , Caitlin Clark , to come out and outscore the men and put up numbers like that , to , like you know , maybe we need to look at it . It takes at the time and you and I talked about this when a soccer team will bring in more money than the men and filling the stadiums and winning for them , to say , well , maybe we look at it . So you can't .
Speaker 1I will not applaud a fish for swimming . To me , that is not change . To me , that is when the financial implications is moving the needle . And to me , when change comes is when you and I don't get to make those rules right . We can say , well , Tricia's changing , the why it's changing is irrelevant . But the problem with that is if I take that stance and say , okay , let's just accept the win , let's just accept the fact that they made progress in that area .
Speaker 1Here is the problem with that when they stop beating the men and when they stop , and we saw that , filling the seats in there and the men and when they stop , and we saw that filling the seats in there and it goes back to the man get the bigger salary . It goes back to the way it was , Because even though when the women in soccer were killing it , their money went up , you know , and took a bump , but that's temporary . They're nowhere near the man and they won't be , and they will literally have to play at the level or outplay the men just to get close to their salary . So when you're saying you're changing , when I'm taking a step forward just to keep going back , when my reproductive rights are staying back , when DEI is gone or whatever , as a woman I cannot say we're progressing . That looks like regression to me .
Speaker 2I just think you're confusing two different things . One is certainly a financial conversation , which is , you know , should .
Speaker 1It's a collective body of women .
Speaker 2But should women have control of their reproductive rights ? Absolutely , I mean , and the fact that the government never stepped in was a major overreach by the government . I'm going to leave that one there for some other podcasts . When it comes to the financial aspect of why women athletes are paid less than male athletes , it's purely a financial conversation . I mean , if the day that a women's WNBA game draws the same viewership , audience and interest from sponsors , there will be parity .
Speaker 2But this idea that because women play the same game as a man , that they should be paid the same amount , what if it was the other way around ? What if women's college basketball or basketball was much more successful ? Would a man then turn around and say , well , I do the same sport as a woman , shouldn't I be paid the same ? It's a financial conversation . And well , I do the same sport as a woman , shouldn't I be paid the same ? It's a financial conversation . And I hope I really do . I hope , whether it's Caitlin Clark or some of the other people you mentioned , put the WNBA on the same trajectory that the NBA is on and that parity is achieved , because all of a sudden , people want to watch the game , because it's entertaining . It's a great game now . It didn't used to be . We've got to be fair . It didn't used to be as just , incredibly talented as these players are now . I hope they fill the arenas , I hope that the television rights come and I hope the sponsorships come and I hope .
Speaker 1with all of that , the financial model changes . And I just want to state this and you're right , before we go , because this happened today and I told her I would bring it up . So my daughter , Taylor , shout out to her she's writing a book and I'm putting it out in the universe . It's going to be a New York Times bestseller . Because that's just me , and if I have the power to put something in the universe , I'm going to put greatness out there , make it big .
Speaker 1But I told her in this , bless her heart , she's in a writer's group with a bunch of seniors and no judgment on seniors at all , and this is not an attack on seniors , so don't take it that way . It was the fact that my point of bringing this up her her book , and I had to tell her . I said , taylor , you're a rule breaker , so you're in a room with these , these older women , um , and ? And most of them are jewish , and so they're writing a lot of things . That's in that vein and in that context , and and and so they , they write by , you know , everything is quoted to writer's style . I said so . She said they have this thing where they call like tear it , like rip it up , so that means like I'm giving you my work of art , and so they go around and they judge it which is fine .
Speaker 1She goes . Mom , I put myself out there , I expect them to judge me , but they snatch my . They snatch me bald , like I . I didn't have something that killed me like that and I and I'm bringing this up I say taylor , you don't get to be both meaning you are a rule breaker , that you are .
Speaker 1You are writing a book , but you're not doing in a typical writing style so you're writing a period piece but you bring it in , just like shonda rhimes is the queen of this . You don't watch bridgerton , you know , and that's period piece . But then you'll look up and you'll hear modern music over a classical track . So they're doing all these unconventional things . That's what a rule breaker is . It's defying convention . I said . But so when you step into that rule breaker circle and you don't see it , you didn't know that's what you were doing . You have to expect the people who follow the rules Are and you didn't know that's what you were doing .
Speaker 1You have to expect the people who follow the rules Are going to push back and on that note , I thank you Did you have anything else you want to add ?
Speaker 2Not that I haven't already said , Okay , that's great .
Speaker 1Well , I just get a lot of food for thought , a lot of things to think about , and that's just true when you come out and you step into the arena and you take a stance or you speak up and speaking up is speaking for yourself Do it and know that you will get pushed back , but who cares ?
Speaker 2Who's ?
Speaker 1going to stand for you ,
Being the Architect of Your Life
Speaker 1but you .
Speaker 2The only other thing I would say is that in life there are drivers and there are passengers . You decide every day whether you want to take the wheel or if you want to let somebody else drive , and so if somebody else is driving , don't be upset where the car is going . I think Confucius said that , although I'm not sure he ever owned an automobile , but just saying .
Speaker 1You're not sure if he did what .
Speaker 2Ever owned an automobile ? Have you ever seen a picture of Confucius in a car ?
Speaker 1But anyway , what Roger Kipling did say is like when he said I am the master of my faith , I am the captain of my soul , and so that's why I say you are the architect . You get to tell your own story . And tell your story and be authentically who you were created to be . You may have to break the rules . Give yourself permission to break a rule , as long as it's for you and you know you're doing it from a good space of good intentions . Until we meet again . I'll see you on the perch . Be well , take care , thank you .
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