Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
Welcome to the Perch Podcast Channel: The Thoughtful Pause Podcast
Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent Harm, a philosophy inspiring meaningful conversations. Hosted by Tricia Porter and Toby Malbec, seasoned business professionals and life partners, this podcast blends decades of expertise with a mission to foster understanding. Guided by the belief that where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do, they explore how experiences shape perspectives and how expanding our worldview fosters empathy.
From different races, worlds, and viewpoints, Tricia and Toby tackle complex topics with curiosity and a commitment to positive change. Unafraid of controversy, they challenge listeners to embrace a higher perspective and see differences as opportunities for connection. Whether seeking personal growth or a fresh lens on life, Perch is more than a podcast—it’s a mission. Join us to pause, reflect, and rise to higher ground.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
When Settling in Love Becomes a Saddle! The High Cost of Loyalty
In this episode of Counting the Cost of Loyalty, we uncover the high emotional cost of settling in love and the true meaning of loyalty in relationships that no longer uplift us. Hosts Tree and Toby explore why so many remain loyal out of fear of loneliness, societal pressures, and financial dependence—forces that often turn love into an “unbreakable saddle” rather than a source of true happiness and growth.
"Settling in love is like trading your dreams for comfort—when what you truly deserve is a love that ignites, not one that merely sustains."
Tree and Toby dive into how personal insecurities, learned patterns, and societal expectations shape our capacity for self-worth and authentic connections. Drawing from Dr. John Gottman’s relationship insights, they discuss how true loyalty should elevate rather than diminish us.
With heartfelt wisdom and humor, Tree and Toby invite listeners to reflect: Is my loyalty lifting me up, or holding me down? This episode speaks to anyone ready to question what a healthy, fulfilling relationship truly means.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
Good day, first people. For those of you who joined us for the first time, welcome. For those of you who have subscribed, thank you. And for those of you who haven't, hopefully after this you will. So we're going to start out. What was the thumbs down?
Speaker 2:for people who didn't subscribe. Oh, we love everyone. They're watching.
Speaker 1:So we love you. If you don't subscribe, we still love you, toby, so you're joining us on episode two, if you did not see episode one of season two.
Speaker 1:Don't make it sound like we're like well I was, before I was so rudely interrupted. It's episode two of our series. Okay, counting the cost of loyalty. Why stay true to what has failed you? Why, why, why Stay true to what has failed you? So the last episode it aged. Interestingly, I can't say it didn't age well, it was about politics and party loyalty. But we've got to move right along Well.
Speaker 2:The good news is my email box is now empty, Liquor stores are now busy and the TV companies no longer have any advertising, so it's all good. Good job.
Speaker 1:So we've got to move right past that subject and typically I would say if you missed it, go back. Don't go back, just stay away from politics for a while Can't go back On to this, today's episode in Perch. In Perch is where we pause, evaluate responses to circumvent harm. So we're going to ask you to pause on today's topic, which is love. When settling becomes your saddle, pause on that. So is your horse broke? Why are you riding like that?
Speaker 2:We're just trotting, we haven't galloped yet You're trotting, we're trotting, okay. We'll trot on this. There's trotting, galloping, galloped, yet you're trotting, we're trotting.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll try on this there's trotting galloping, yes, okay, back to the subject let's go over my cowboy hat.
Speaker 2:You know that, but I left it up north.
Speaker 1:That's where my cowboy boots you are like the little toddler I am with, like all kind of disorders, the thing in front of the walmart I get on that thing and go around and normally I will give you, like any good parent nowadays, an iPad to play with.
Speaker 2:There we go, why the adults are talking, but you're part of the conversation. Sadly, I'm an adult. Here we go, here we go.
Speaker 1:When selling becomes your saddle. And let's evaluate this. It's a lot to consider in this, so let go of it If you have any perceived notions. No telling where this is going. So let's evaluate. We're going to start with the first area of evaluation. One thing that was brought up is the reason why people settle and love is a fear of loneliness. So studies indicate that nearly 50% of people stay in relationships due to fear of being alone or perceived difficulty of starting over. This fear often outweighs the dissatisfaction they feel within a relationship. The American Psychology Association found that those fears fear of being alone are more likely to remain in relationships even if they're unfulfilled. So people stay, even when they are happy, for fear of being alone.
Speaker 2:So that's our starting point. Great Well greetings, perch Sapiens. Good to see you all again.
Speaker 1:Not as Sapiens.
Speaker 2:Well, perch Sapiens? Yes, that's correct. So I think it was interesting when we were talking about having this particular topic right after Halloween, because I thought about the fact that we all dress up for Halloween and we all pretend to be something that we're not for Halloween.
Speaker 1:So love the, I'm going to go there. Just stick with me. Within 20 minutes it's all going to make sense.
Speaker 2:All right. So for Halloween we all get dressed up and pretend to be something we're not, and many times in relationships some people every day dress up and pretend to be something that they're not because they don't want to be lonely, that's good you did connect the dots.
Speaker 1:Good for you, toby, drop the mic, we're done.
Speaker 2:I didn't say drop the mic, so the reality is that a lot of people, for fear of loneliness, for fear of never finding a person, will put on a mask every day and pretend to be something that they're not and they get into relationships and they believe that they can make it work. Or the other way around they put a mask on the other person and pretend that they're something that they're not, and that's really not a good guide to any successful relationship. And I would contend that there's a very big difference between adapting to somebody within a relationship, and what I mean by that is I normally eat dinner at 6, treats at 6.30. Okay, we can meet, we can have dinner at 6.30. But if she's a vegan, that's change. And that kind of change is fairly radical. And people that set go into relationships and you hear it all the time. Your friends will say, as she does this or he does that, but but I think I can get used to that, or you know, I'm sure they will change is a big red flag.
Speaker 1:Can I just when you said that that was that I'll give you credit.
Speaker 2:That was a good every now and then you don't tie things back to the subject.
Speaker 1:But good job you did. But I think there's a for me. What I hear is a third caveat to that is I don't know if we necessarily realize that we're wearing a mask Meaning a lot of times, especially when you start off really young in relationships and things are new, sometimes we unconsciously morph into something and it really takes. That's why I thought it was so important to do this show and have this many layers. It really takes someone to point out to you sometime that not only have you changed, because people quick to tell you when you change but not quick to say you know, to ask you have you really taken time to consider how you are showing up?
Speaker 2:and if.
Speaker 1:Are you showing up just for the sake of being a relationship, or are you showing up as your true, authentic self when you are still learning?
Speaker 2:especially when you're young.
Speaker 2:Learning is the interesting point, because I think that as you grow up in a family, all you have to look at as role models are either your family or your friends. So if you're growing up in a house, you may have a single parent or a relationship where your parents don't show each other very much affection. Then you're in a situation where you're not learning a lot of social cues. So while all of a sudden now you get out on your own and now you're in a relationship, you don't really know whether you're changing or not, because you don't know what the rules of the game are. So I would even contend it's a. It's probably a lofty statement, but most people don't even know what love is until they've actually experienced a lot of rejection and a lot of hurt and loss and then they recognized oh, I bet that's what love was, because I would contend for that for the longest time in my relationships early on and my parents I had. I grew up in what I would call a traditional family environment, but my parents were particularly affectionate.
Speaker 2:They were very businesslike with each other. Should we do this, should we do that?
Speaker 1:but so it's transactional. Is that what you're saying? Not necessarily emotional, right, but I knew that they cared for each other.
Speaker 2:My dad became terminally ill. My mother cared for him to his very end and loved him until the day she died, but showed it in a very controlled, reserved way. So I would say that many people probably grow up in an environment where they have to kind of learn on their own what the difference is between like or being compatible and truly loving. And that's why I worry a little bit when people get married too young, because I sometimes wonder if they've really experienced the gamut of emotions and feelings and really understand what it means to be in love and what that relationship is going to involve and how much at times you have to fight for it.
Speaker 1:I think the only problem and this is what I've learned about the age thing in love there is no clock, because it's so a lot of times we are quick to judge young people for, you know, getting too serious what we say too soon or marrying too soon, Because we think we said things by our own personal clock.
Speaker 1:So we look at it, it took me this long to know myself, this long to mature this, so we come up with our own personal barometer, pretty much to say I didn't know myself until then and therefore, because I didn't know myself until this point, then you shouldn't be loving anyone until you're of a certain age. But what people don't realize is love and knowledge kind of go hand in hand, and so some people are very knowledgeable. They have a deep understanding of love because they've had to care and be providers early on in their life and caregivers, so they have gone through a lot of the stages early on. Well, some people have never had to care about anybody but themselves and that's why when you see people marry late in life, and therefore what we consider late 40s and 50s, they still don't get it because they were like not to pick on only children. But what I'm saying is sometimes people have only had me, myself and I to focus on, so they, from a knowledge perspective, are no more mature from a relationship and emotional perspective than anybody.
Speaker 2:So I get concerned. It's almost a sine curve too if you think about it. I don't want to get too mathematical, but I think early on you don't know enough to love and then later on you're so set in your ways that you don't want to adapt to somebody else to love. So there's a lot of prime ground in there where you're like no-transcript. To me, loneliness is a byproduct of confidence and it's interesting because you know truth and disclosure here.
Speaker 2:I've been married twice, divorced twice, and the first after I divorced the first time around I found myself lonely and I thought you know, I really want to get back into a relationship. Fast forward 10 years later and I divorced for the second time completely different vibe. I was not in that place at all. I was like I'm perfectly good, I have no problem If I never find somebody else again, if I never enter into a relationship, that's fine. But I was in a different place because, from a confidence standpoint, I just felt more comfortable with myself. So I think some of the loneliness issue is I feel like somebody else needs to complete me, and I didn't think I needed by that time anybody else to complete me.
Speaker 1:But here's something to consider. It's so much power. It goes back to my knowledge and I'm going to hold that off to an end and a deeper understanding. But that's a knowledge, it's still a learning. So you had your experience the first marriage and you said the second marriage.
Speaker 1:You are more knowledgeable of yourself of who you are, and so it's the level of yourself, of who you are, and so it's the level. And I think, and and until I'm going to reference a book later on for you guys not a sponsor, not promoting it, but I found a lot of it very insightful. As far as relationships in marriage is concerned, the power of knowledge is something else, is knowledge of self, and once you, you are aware of who you are, it's it's it. And it goes back to people dismissed as saying you know, you can't love someone until you love yourself. Your first love should be you and people like oh, that's impossible, I've loved animals, I've loved this, whatever. No love relationship, true love, it has to, because you are morphing into what everyone wants you to be instead of being authentically who you were created to be.
Speaker 1:But, if I can, it ties into my second point. You touched on it. The other thing that they bought up, as far as why people settle, is social pressures and expectations. I struggle with the social pressures.
Speaker 2:That's just not me, I'm changed a lot, but yeah, go ahead but this is how they explain it.
Speaker 1:It says societal norms and family expectations. I get family expectations, but societal norms and family expectations play a significant role. In a survey by the pew research, over 60% of respondents admitted feeling pressure to be in a committed relationship or marriage by a certain age. Cultural expectations often influence people to settle down sooner, even if it means compromising personal happiness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear that I think that was probably more prevalent before than today. I mean, we've talked about this before. The number of friends that we have who are in partnerships and it's not a case where will they get married at some point? I don't know. A very, very close friend of mine who just recently passed was in a partnership for 60 years and he and his partner were committed to each other at the same level. Just because, in the eyes of god, they weren't married didn't mean that they weren't committed to each other.
Speaker 2:So I sometimes think that that was a more parochial way of looking at things. Okay, you got out of high school, then you have your first girlfriend, and then you have your second girlfriend, and then it's you get out of college and then you get married and then you have kids, lather, rinse, repeat and repeat, and I think some of that has changed. You know, we all know friends of ours. Now they're having children that aren't married. It's become a more appropriate way to do things. So I'm not sure the social pressures parents definitely, but the whole social pressure. I don't think I would go to a friend of mine and say, oh, you got a girl pregnant, you got to marry her.
Speaker 1:No, but what I this is, I do agree. I think that's more antiquated, but this is what, if we can consider, has changed in our society. The social pressure now is what we factually see is that in society, in our society, everything is advertised, post, put out, that we celebrate everything, and so that's a different pressure. We celebrate, you know, all baby announcements, what's the color, what's the gender, something opposed and something to see, and I, and especially all the young people in my life I hear it it was like they go to so many weddings now like a wedding for a wedding for a wedding, because it becomes more about the event then about the relationship. So I think it's that pressure when you, if you're a young person, and you're on wedding. I literally had someone in my life that was in six weddings in one year.
Speaker 1:I think that's a lot, and so then, when you're not that person like and you look like everyone around.
Speaker 2:That's the societal pressure, when everyone around you is doing it and I think we should all agree that if you go to a wedding and you give an expensive gift and the wedding doesn't last at least five years, you get some money back we're going back to love we're going back to love, but anyway, somebody must have nothing nothing go back to the societal um.
Speaker 1:Did you want to add anything to that topic?
Speaker 2:only that. I think that one's probably less or so than it has been in the past.
Speaker 1:But but it's another. But that's maybe that's because you're looking at its surface, because expectations have so many levels or maybe religious I was about to say obviously we're down here in alabama.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot more traditional values in the south. Perhaps just having been born in the northeast and grown up in the midwest, uh, maybe it's a little bit less traditional than than here. But okay, I'll give you that one. I didn't ask for it, I was just. If you don't agree or whatever.
Speaker 1:No purchase, not about being in agreement, it's just things to consider. So then the next um subject that bought up, and this has been, and I don't have the numbers how long in our society has this been the number one factor? But it's finance. Yes, it's the number one cause for divorces in America. So, financial dependence, financial interdependence.
Speaker 2:This is why people stay together, or why people actually split up.
Speaker 1:This is why they stay together Settling.
Speaker 2:That makes sense.
Speaker 1:You're saddle, settle they. They're settled, they settle for. Financial interdependence can also create a saddle effect. Um, as many couples are intertwined economically. According to 2023 bank rate survey, around 42 percent of people reported staying in a relationship longer than they wanted to due to the dependence or shared financial goals which can add a weight to staying.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, you know, and it's become a much bigger problem. I mean, I think back to my parents. My mother, in my entire lifetime, never worked, was it? That was a time when you could live on one salary, and today I don't know how most couples can survive without both couples, but both people working.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it becomes a real challenge when you can't do the right thing for the right reasons, which is, you know, financially I can't afford to do this and then it creates all kinds of challenges around. You know, obviously, we know there's things like alimony and there's child support, which obviously put a burden on both sides as well. So, and all that tends to do is just drive us, drive a wedge into the relationship even further. But at some point you wonder whether there's people out there and I don't wonder. I know, I know a number of my friends that have actually shared this. They live in and in the same house and share expenses, but the relationship isn't isn't much anymore and they've, so they've just kind of gotten into what a marriage of financial convenience so it's funny because when you say that I know that for a fact and I know, like you said, friends and family, that's like that.
Speaker 1:Then people have an issue with titles and labels, because in this instance I think it's warranted and I'm not a big label and title person, because I think it needs to be some honesty in there, because what happens is when people are now roommates that's essentially what you are. When you sit and decide for financial reasons, I don't like you, you don't like me, but we have to live together you are now officially a roommate. The problem with that is, if you don't acknowledge that, it really muddies the muddies the water for everyone, because if you happen to have children, it's confusing because, is it? Is that an image you want, a model? If you were and I and I tell people all the time when they judge people who divorce and and I myself was married for a long time in divorce it was like I am I modeling the characteristics of what I will be grateful to have my children in Meaning.
Speaker 1:Would I want this marriage to be okay for my children? If I don't like it, if it will break my heart to see my daughters living in a marriage the way I am, then why do I want?
Speaker 1:that for myself. So I think a lot of times what we do is this is why and people probably have an issue with what I'm about to say I don't applaud people for being married long periods of time, and let me just put a caveat behind that I appreciate marriage, I applaud marriage. I am not anti-marriage, but it's a. It's a fallacy when you say when we hear people say we've been married 40 years and immediately we go good for you.
Speaker 2:How many of those were happy Right, not only happy, it can be extremely toxic.
Speaker 1:So what are we celebrating? So I'm the one I'm the queen of. I don't applaud a fish for swimming, you know. I don't celebrate things when I don't know what I'm celebrating, you know. And so if I know somebody and I do know couples who are truly happy and married or whatever I applaud them, you know, from the back.
Speaker 2:If I could do a cartwheel, I would. As I was just saying a minute ago, we don't always give our kids credit for actually observing what's going on.
Speaker 1:That's because a lot of times we're not honest of what's going on and then we say, well, I think we think we can hide these things from our kids.
Speaker 2:And I mean, I remember growing up again. My parents were friendly to each other, rarely showed affection to each other. So I came out, you know, when I was in high school and college same kind of thing. I was friendly to a lot of people, rarely affectionate. And then when I got divorced the first time around, when I had kids, I felt like they didn't see what I saw.
Speaker 2:And when we actually divorced, it was fascinating because they thought that that was a good move for me and I didn't give them anywhere near enough credit. And when friends of mine would come to me and they'd say I hear you're getting divorced, what happened? And I just said three words. I said I'm not happy. And it was like poof with these people. They're like you mean you could divorce over that.
Speaker 2:And it was the most simple duh statement. And it's like yes, you can get divorced if you're not happy. It doesn't have to be something cataclysmic, it doesn't have to be financial challenges or fidelity issues or any number of other things. You could just say at some point hey look, I'm just not happy. And what that tends to do is permeates into everything. It permeates into the way you behave and the way you manage your friendship, sometimes how you manage your finances, what you do with your life, how decisions get made. So I don't give my, I didn't give my kids enough credit that they saw that and they said dad isn't happy, he's now divorced and he's happy, and that's not. That's again not a dig on my ex-wife or me, it just I wasn't happy and I didn't feel like I could solve it.
Speaker 1:I just want to step in on that part, because the minute you said three words, I wasn't happy In my spirit. I felt people judgment and judge away. I do want to give something for you to perch on. Though it's so, the happiness is a spectrum and only you can define what that means for you. Because someone else here happy. I remember my ex-husband saying he wasn't happy and I laughed in his face and that was wrong. Don't get me wrong. That was wrong, but in the time, because in my head and that's why I felt the need to call it out, Because in my head I'm like marriage is ebbs and flows. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, but we dismiss people because we don't know what happiness means for them, Meaning I'm not always happy. So what? It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2:Well and again, if you wake up one day, you're not happy, that's one thing Right.
Speaker 1:But that's one thing, but if it's a right, but that's why I'm making a point, I said because we get to define it, because sometimes what people unhappiness needs a full breakdown of everything else.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like if I'm waking up and and unhappiness to one person is miserable, misery to someone else that's a big difference, and so that's why we shouldn't judge, we shouldn't tell people you know how they should be and what that's important. Marriage and relationships is so personal and it's so situational and no one owes you their story. So when people are struggling or going through relationships or whatever, it's better to come from the perspective of just listen and try to do like we're doing in this podcast give people tools to do some of the work.
Speaker 2:I guess the other thing, too, is that there are periods of time in your life that you have to think about somebody other than yourself, and then there are times in your life this may again not land well where you have to worry about yourself, and early on, when my children were young, I felt like I had an obligation to take care of them, and the family.
Speaker 2:And then, as that moved on and they got older and they were more capable of being independent, I looked at myself and I was closing in on 50 years old and I said to myself the most simple statement that I ever. I said I'm 50 years old, Do I want to live this? The most simple statement that I ever. I said I'm 50 years old, Do I want to live this way for the next 30 years of my life? And I just couldn't bring myself to that. I just said you know, this person doesn't deserve to live with me for the next 30 years living like this. I don't deserve to live in this lifestyle for the next 30 years of my life. And that's what I mean by I wasn't happy, happy not that. One day I woke up and it's like the breakfast cereal stale and I'm like not happy, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1:But I think that that's a perfect segue into the next topic, that um. The reason why people settle in their saddle is, um comfort and fear of change. Before I get to this subject, can I just say we're gonna have to do a full perch podcast on comfort zone I that's one of the. I wish we get rid of that word and I have to say it in here because it's referenced, but it's.
Speaker 1:It's such an oxymoronic statement to me. People only say it's their comfort zone and places where they don't want to be. So you literally are making yourself comfortable in a situation you don't want to be in Fascinating. Nevertheless, back to the subject Comfort and fear change. Neuroscience shows that the brain favors familiarity and routine, which leads to settling because it feels safe. This comfort zone often discourages people from pursuing new relationships. According to the 2021 study from Northwestern University, individuals frequently choose predictability over possibility of emotional growth, often to avoid emotional risk. So they like people.
Speaker 1:Naturally a human, you know the human condition is to fear change. I get that. But if on the other side of change, I look at it this way, right, A rainbow, right. So on this side of the rainbow is all of the things that make you uncomfortable angst, anxiety, all of that. So we know what. The opposite of that. But in order for you to get to that, to get to the other side, you have to move, you have to change, you have to to do the work, and people find it easier comfort to stay in a place that they're uncomfortable in, because it's more comfort in what's predictable than unknown and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 2:That's heavy. It sounds light, but that's heavy. We did a podcast about work and we did one a while ago. If you haven't seen it, it was amazing called why Stay? Watch that podcast. But there's a very interesting article in Inc that talks exactly to what you were just saying, that science says this is why you fear change. And there's a really there's a very interesting study that was done. Think about this. They took a group of people and they showed them this painting the initial people. They said this painting was done in 1905. They took another group of people. They showed them the exact same painting and said it was done last year. Which one do you think by far and away people like better?
Speaker 1:The one that was done last year.
Speaker 2:No, 1905.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, the painting More familiarity and it's older, it's, older, it's more and they found it much more.
Speaker 2:Same picture, fascinating study. So what they say is that neuroscience research teaches us that uncertainty registers in our brain much like an error registers in our brain. It needs to be corrected before we can feel comfortable again. So we'd rather not have that hanging out there.
Speaker 1:Say that one more time for me.
Speaker 2:Neuroscience research teaches that uncertainty registers in our brain like an error does, like something we have to fix.
Speaker 1:Okay, Uncertainty, yes so we don't like uncertainty.
Speaker 2:It drives us into this uncomfortable place. Now this article I don't have time to get into it, but talks about how you can deal with things that you know, and it talks about the four C's, it talks about career, it talks about competence. Anyway, it's a great article. I'll post it on the Perch podcast. But it really talks about how, once you understand why your brain is doing these things, you can start to create coping mechanisms to recognize that change. While it is fearful, if the outcome in your mind is greater than where you are today, it's worth the risk.
Speaker 1:If the outcome in your mind is greater than where you are today, it's worth the risk. And that's why, with intention, I've said to Toby, even as part of PERCH, and what PERCH stands for. You're going to hear me say this often, almost every episode, you want to get away with me saying consider, and the power of consideration, consideration is for you to consider another thought, but considering another thought is connected to change, and that's it. So, people, to consider something being a different way, or to consider something greater, or to consider means, if I consider that that may be true, means if I consider that that may be true, but that I will have to change the way I look at something, or the way I move, or my environment, and so a lot of times, that's why we dismiss the conversation, the consideration.
Speaker 2:The one thing that just came to me as you were talking about that and I mean the last thing. I think either you or I want to sit up here and do is suggest to people go back and find reasons to get out of your relationships. In fact, the corollary may be true, or the opposite may be true, which is, go back and find out how to stay in your relationship.
Speaker 1:Literally. That's where I'm going, because, at the heart of this, it's only because, at the end of the day, I would hope that every human being on this planet has a desire to be better, a desire and I know that Tree gets upset with me when I do this, but I'm a big photographer, I love to take pictures and I can see it's almost.
Speaker 2:It is depressing. I can see through pictures the time when my relationships began to die. The smiles are replaced. The number of pictures I have of that person, just the tone and demeanor. It's unbelievable. I can almost set it to the time and the date when it all starts to change. And to me I'm like what happened? Where did that go wrong? And part of it I absolutely put squarely at my feet. It's communication, it's the ability to express your feelings. I'm not happy. I'm not happy because of this, or we really need to spend more time with that. Um, and and I think far too often and I'll again put it at my feet um, I, I just let it get too far where it became just irreconcilable Can.
Speaker 1:I tell you this is the first podcast that we are totally connected on because that literally, even down to the imagery and the pictures, is stated in my next statement in here. So if you, before I step on, you will you finish with that.
Speaker 2:No, please.
Speaker 1:So that really leads me to. I could have done a show on this book by itself, and maybe we should in the future. But the next and the last topic is emotional and psychological impact. I really found this amazing. So, Dr John Gottman if you guys don't know who he is, he has a New York Times bestselling author. The book he sold over a million copies. It's called the Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work.
Speaker 2:He's not divorced is he?
Speaker 1:I honestly didn't vet that part out, but what I do know for sure thank you for calling it out, Toby, but what I do know for sure he's been in the industry 40 years. He's a renowned psychologist in relationships research and part of the research is what you just said in the actual looking at the marriage and it shows signs if you are paying attention. So good for you, Toby.
Speaker 1:I got two other boys this week and he's best known for his work in marriage stability and divorce predictions and he has a love lab in Washington and Seattle, not that kind of love. They're doing real work, not hey. Toby, let it go. They're doing real psychological research studies and actually studies at the University of Washington where he predicts and he's been doing this for 40 years he predicts a couple's marriage will end in divorce within a 30 within a 91 percent accuracy rate where was he when the elections were taking place?
Speaker 1:you know what I say?
Speaker 2:we're dealing with politics. But Okay, yes, but you know what.
Speaker 1:It's so much and it's so good because what he discovered, too, it's not about what you're saying, because a lot of psychologists and marriage therapists look at what's going wrong and he said, like for the first 10 years that's where he started. Then he realized he was getting it wrong. They start searching what marriages work and what did they do right and how can we? Is there any way for us to take this and make it applicable to helping people making their marriage whole, but also putting up a red flag quickly and say you know, like Whoopi Goldberg said in Ghost, you're in danger, girl. I think we should have him on the podcast and he can tell us. Whoopi Goldberg said in Ghost you endanger girl.
Speaker 2:I think we should have him on the podcast and he can tell us Whoopi.
Speaker 1:Goldberg, oh, no, the doctor, I think he's above our pay grade.
Speaker 2:You never know. We should have him on the podcast and decide whether or not.
Speaker 1:This man sold a million copies over a million copies of one book.
Speaker 2:We've got over a million Lies.
Speaker 1:But anyway, I just want to talk about two. It's a really good workshop book and honestly I would strongly suggest everyone that's in a relationship or marriage. It could not hurt for you and your partner to do some of these exercises together. So one of the one of his main points it's called the magic ratio. One of his main points it's called the magic ratio and the magic ratio is five to one, one of Gottman's most notable findings. In the magic ratio he discovered that for a relationship to be stable and healthy, there should be at least five positive interactions for every negative one. Five to one, okay, so what does that look like? And the next one, because again, we could do a whole podcast on this. So you get the positive and negative. I think that's kind of self-explanatory, but I bought this one up just because it sounds odd and goofy and I like odd and goofy. The next area where he does research and breakdown it's called the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Speaker 2:That sounds pretty heavy.
Speaker 1:I know. That's why I like it. It said Gottman identifies four communication patterns that are strong predictors of relationship breakdown. So I just want to give it to you.
Speaker 2:Bringing up nasty stuff from the past.
Speaker 1:No, but when you throw a rock in a dark room, a hit dog a holler. So if any of this hits you, I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm in Alabama now.
Speaker 1:So if you're a hit dog, then try to be silent. Number one criticism Attacking a partner's character rather than addressing specific behavior. Number two contentment Displaying disrespect.
Speaker 2:Contentment or contempt Contentment? Did I say content? Yeah, I was going to say I'm sorry, being happy, thank you for catching me on that.
Speaker 1:No contempt.
Speaker 2:Contempt. Okay, gotcha Not content. I was going to say if I'm happy, I'm in trouble.
Speaker 1:Thank, you for catching me on that. Yeah, you know you're held in contempt, that's right.
Speaker 1:But contempt meant displaying disrespect. Sarcasm what Sarcasm? Stop it. Or disdain which erodes protection. Number four defensiveness. I don't know why you say that. Right Responded to a conflict with self protection instead of openness. And I like this one. I kind of really did, doug. I says I'm just gonna bring it up. Um, mention it, it's called stonewalling, and stonewalling just to FYI, before I read, this is typically done. Um, when stonewalling shows up in a relationship, 91% of the time it's in men. Just saying that's what the research said now I'm stonewalling.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna read what stonewall it is stonewalling, withdrawing from interaction or shutting down emotionally, which creates disconnect. That's what the research says. I'm just so humble servant sharing information that the research says. So it's what I mean. I bought this up. This has nothing to do with anything, but but got Barry. I'll state the last statement from Godman, because he's not paying me to sell his books and I'm not trying to sell his when we have an amount him on.
Speaker 2:Did you say?
Speaker 1:Godman Works emphasized that relationships should not just avoid negative interaction but actively cultivate positive ones to maintain emotional health. Voila, that's what I said, all of this.
Speaker 2:Voila.
Speaker 1:Actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think one of the and I don't disagree with anything there, and I was thinking about it as you went through it and that again again, men and women tend to be wired very differently. Guys can get in a bar fight and then go enjoy a beer together, whereas women tend to be much more keep kind of the baggage kind of stays along. And I remember one of the things that really used to bother me you and I have talked about this is when, when we have an argument I want to get it resolved.
Speaker 1:Okay, move on. Toby, you don't have to be that dramatic. You could have did a subtle pause, subtle pause Anyway.
Speaker 2:Anyway. So the reality is, when we have an argument, I want to get to a point where we're both good with that topic and then we're like are we good? We're good, okay, and what I mean in my mind, we're good means it's not going to come back six months later as part of baggage from another situation, because the last thing I want to do is get into an argument six months from now and say and remember the time back in 1812 that you've got to leave that stuff behind. And it's not always that easy to do, because if, if the bags just pile up, you can't fight something that you either don't remember to happen three years ago or that you thought was resolved that time ago. Now to the same point, and you brought this up it's not my job to tell you when you're over it, so it's your job to repeat that again, because I bought that up and I said yes, and that's very true, it's your job to decide.
Speaker 1:Repeat that again, because I bought that up and I said what? And that's very true, it was brilliant. So I just want you to say it again.
Speaker 2:Brilliant may be a bit strong I taught you what?
Speaker 1:What did I teach you?
Speaker 2:Not much. Anyway, it really is up to the person who is offended to decide when they're no longer offended or when something bothers them and no longer bothers them, but it's also their responsibility to work very hard to get to that point.
Speaker 1:And that's going to tie into the very last point that I made as far as I started it on this note and I'm going to end it on this note is knowledge is knowing. I think the problem in a lot of relationships and even in the situation you gave that was personal to us is saying people think because they discuss a subject, because we talked about it, we talked about that. You hear a couple sit all the time. We didn't, we just talk about that last night. Why are we talking about that again? Talking about something and coming to some kind of resolve is two different things. Discussing something is just airing away like a fart. It's just out there and that means nothing. I did not fart. I said stop looking at me like I passed gas in the wind. Like a fart. It's just out there and that means nothing. I did not fart. I said stop looking at me like I passed that was like no, I'm just.
Speaker 1:That was like out of nowhere it's a fart in the wind, just wow, because people put there goes our peachy relationships put so much, you know, energy on.
Speaker 1:Well, we talked about it already. We discussed that we could discuss something until the cows come home, until I'm blue in the face, but do we discuss it and come to some kind of resolve or some kind of agreement of? This is how I see it and this is how you see it. A lot of times what happens is people just say I'm over it Because we keep talking about it and I'm over this conversation. The last thing, gottman dear it, reference this back to knowledge. I thought was was powerful and he used this quote and I had to look it up and think about it. He says even a Bible. He said Bible.
Speaker 1:The term to know is often used as a Euphemism of sexual relations. Yes, so in it means yada. So I think it goes back to Noah's knowledge and he was saying in a relationship, he gives you a lot of these steps to do the work because we think we know people, because we were married or we live with them and day to day or whatever. So what we tend to know is their routine, but we don't know that people like he come, and especially if you're in a relationship with somebody who's you know very routine and predictable. You know he comes in at a certain time. You're going to eat this. Do this fall asleep on the couch? I know I'm like the back of my hand. No, you know that person's routine like the back of your hand. But do you know their hopes, their dreams, their fears? Do you really know the incontroversies of how this person got to be and to care to do that work? Because there's power in that knowledge.
Speaker 2:So one of the things we didn't really talk about but I had in my notes is how do people find themselves?
Speaker 1:Maybe we did talk about it but how do they find themselves picking the wrong person to spend their time with? How do they find?
Speaker 2:themselves. Picking the wrong person, picking the wrong. Okay, explain that for me. Why do people match up with other folks? So I guess one of the things I'd say is we talked about broken bird syndrome. So I guess one of the things I'd say is we talked about broken bird syndrome.
Speaker 2:So sometimes people believe they're in love with somebody because they think they can fix them. So they get into these relationships and they're, like this person's, unhappy I can make them happy. Or they don't understand what a great person they are. I'm going to show them what a great person they are. So it becomes a very one-sided relationship. It comes back again to self-confidence. I mean it's really hard to give somebody else self-confidence. In fact, by definition you can't give somebody else self-confidence. The other thing is, if we don't see, as I said before, in our early relationships what love really is, we get into a relationship and then finally we say let's really not love. And I mean one of the things that I've said to you before is when you and I have an argument.
Speaker 1:We don't argue, okay when you and I go at it and get really angry with each other, you're really angry.
Speaker 2:It bothers me, it affects me, and that, to me, is a byproduct of my care for you. If I didn't really care, I'd be like you know, and then the final thing I would say is love doesn't mean you have to spend every minute of every day with the person. You have to understand a person's ability to spend time together and the ability to spend time apart, and I think you know, speaking personally, we love to do stuff together and then we love to do stuff apart, and so that's part of understanding the nature of the person that you, hopefully, are going to spend the rest of your life with. Not everybody likes to be, you know, just smothered. Um, you know, you may find that a person wants a little time to themselves. That doesn't mean that they're not loyal or that they don't love. They just need time to themselves, and so I just think, but that goes back to yet again what he was saying.
Speaker 1:It's a, it's about that knowledge, because you have to care enough to want to know how to communicate. So if you have a, if you are proclivity in our words are a little reverse well, I'm the one that shuts down, you know. So if I, if I'm more apt to shut down and you want to your desire to truly make sure that I'm OK, how do we acknowledge that and respect each other boundaries and what systems do we set up to make sure we are respecting each other's boundaries and yet still getting what we need? But that's care enough to know. And he used an example and I thought this was really profound. But that's care enough to know.
Speaker 1:And he used an example and I thought this was really profound. He said it was a doctor and his research lab. Of course a doctor, chances are, he's highly educated and very smart, but he didn't know anything about his wife or his family because his, his care, his passion, concern was going to his job, so he would come home. He was like he didn't even realize, when they started doing his research, the dog's name. Like how do you not know he had a dog? He knew he had a dog, but he didn't care enough to get involved. When they got the dog he was working. When he did this. He's working. So time passed on and that's the dog and that's what he called him. But one day they they gave a story where the wife decided she kept doing all these things to save her relationship and her marriage and she went to his work and, surprised, packed a lunch and took the kids. I thought this was an infidelity story, like, oh, you did.
Speaker 2:She's going to find out.
Speaker 1:I thought, that's what. I was doing Research said that she just decided to surprise him. At work I was like I don't know girl, this is going to end poorly.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go work out for you. But what changed for her is? She showed up and yet again he was checking his pager you know it's an old story Checking his pager and his beeper waiting, you know, looking for calls and seeing what's important. And even though his family was there and surprised him, he did not make time. But his phone rang again. I thought it was an infidelity story because people, that's what we think.
Speaker 1:When you, when you're not loving me, you love someone. If you're not showing me attention, you show attention. So technically, he was showing attention someone else.
Speaker 1:It was his work and when it came, his demeanor changed, his tone changed. He was like, oh you know, and for the first time in his wife's life she realized he did have the capacity to care about what he cared about. So he clearly didn't care about you what he cared about. But I'm sharing a story to say sometimes that's how it is and a lot of times we go to infidelity because when we see traits that are made to have capacity to do things, they just don't do it with us. Then a lot of times it takes to do the work and have that knowledge of where it's going and how how can we balance that?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, I guess the my final thought and you and I have talked about this is to me, a relationship and love and being in a long-term healthy relationship is about little things, and it's little things that you do that the other person appreciates and this is me. But I can't continue to do little things that I find that I do out of love or affection and not have them be reciprocated. I know you disagree with that. You believe that love can be one way, but to me it's like Well, don't say it like that.
Speaker 1:I don't want people to think you could be a love and it's just totally one-sided. Exactly, that's not it, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So to me it's like if you do little things and they're appreciated, you do another little thing that's appreciated and you do something else and what that does is it just continues that type of you know, that type of healthy, meaningful, and it doesn't have to be anything big. You know, guys, you know buy some flowers every now and then, you know, make your partner a cup of coffee. You know, take them out to dinner, Go to a concert. I mean just little things, Not because you have to, Not because it's February 14th, but because it's just kind of fun and because you want to spend time and because your partner's been busy lately or because you guys have been kind of distant.
Speaker 2:Just do those things. It's kind of like that surprise and delight and what you'll find especially and I'll say this from a man's perspective women and delight and what you'll find especially and I'll say this from a man's perspective women appreciate those types of things because it doesn't mean that it has to cost a lot to mean a lot. And so I think if you care, you need to fight for your relationship and you need to show that you care through little actions and things that you do and before I feel, like I've said before, I close like five times but for this very last time, because you just said something, because you specifically address men, and just not in a bad way.
Speaker 1:You called out things for me. Now this is me giving my opinion, but I'm still going to ask you to consider my opinion. Consider a stop. With a happy wife, happy life that when I hear it, it's cringeworthy for me. And let me tell you it's cringeworthy for me and let me tell you why it's cringeworthy for me. It's a relationship. A relationship is two. If you're in a relationship with yourself, you really need help. But a relationship is two people. So it should never be happy wife, happy life. And I, I know the intention, whoever created that had great intentions. But if that was reversed and it was saying you know, happy man, the family stands, whatever crazy thing, what women will be ticked like. You know we would. You know it was like it can't. But it shouldn't be a, it should be us. It's a happy home and it takes both of us to be happy. My needs are no greater than yours and your needs are no greater than mine. Is loving each other enough to care about? How do we have a happy life? And a happy life equals a happy home. Now on it I am ending, and today on the perch peak.
Speaker 1:Loyalty is powerful. It has the potential to stretch us or shrink us, to lift us up or hold us down. But when loyalty becomes a weight, a saddle that binds us rather than to free us, maybe it's time to ask ourselves some hard questions. Loyalty is a choice and sometimes it requires sacrifice. But have we ever truly paused to ask what am I sacrificing? Have I given so much of myself that I've lost pieces that I could never get back? Think about it. After years of giving and holding on, have you ever done the math and realized that somewhere along the way, you lost the essence of who you are? And in return, what did you truly gain? If all that is left is a version of you that feels hollow, a shell of love you hope for, is it worth the price of loyalty? Loyalty should be a force that preserves the best of us, that nurtures and strengthens us. It should never erode who we are.
Speaker 1:So I leave you with this thought Consider if you've been pouring into, if you been pouring yourself out until there's nothing, almost nothing left. Until there's nothing, almost nothing left. Maybe it's time to ask who you really. Who are you really being loyal to? Because, in the end, true loyalty should never come at a price of losing yourself. Let your loyalty uplift and affirm you, not diminish you. You deserve that as much. And remember your perch isn't just a place to sit, it's a place to seek higher perspective. Yet again, thank you guys for another perch Great episode for me. I'm excited about this episode just because, energetically, I think this is the first time, like literally. For those of you don't know when we do Perch, toby doesn't know where I'm going.
Speaker 2:Because normally she's wrong.
Speaker 1:He doesn't know where I'm going. We just know the topic and keep our opinions to ourselves and to the show. But a great show, great episode. Thanks, partner. Again, I'm Tree and this is Toby. Thank you for joining us on Approach. Until we meet again, take care.
