Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
Welcome to the Perch Podcast Channel: The Thoughtful Pause Podcast
Perch stands for Pause, Evaluate, Responses to Circumvent Harm, a philosophy inspiring meaningful conversations. Hosted by Tricia Porter and Toby Malbec, seasoned business professionals and life partners, this podcast blends decades of expertise with a mission to foster understanding. Guided by the belief that where you sit determines what you see, and what you see determines what you do, they explore how experiences shape perspectives and how expanding our worldview fosters empathy.
From different races, worlds, and viewpoints, Tricia and Toby tackle complex topics with curiosity and a commitment to positive change. Unafraid of controversy, they challenge listeners to embrace a higher perspective and see differences as opportunities for connection. Whether seeking personal growth or a fresh lens on life, Perch is more than a podcast—it’s a mission. Join us to pause, reflect, and rise to higher ground.
Perch "The Thoughtful Pause Podcast"
The Hijacking of Woke: How ‘Woke’ Shaped and Divided a Movement
When did woke become such a controversial word? This episode unravels its powerful journey—from a symbol of awareness and social justice to a term used to spark division. Once rooted in the fight for fairness and equality, woke now carries layers of meaning that fuel debates across culture, politics, and workplaces. We explore how this transformation happened and what it says about today's society.
Focusing on real stories and history, we connect the past to the present, asking tough questions about freedom of speech, accountability, and the true purpose of awareness. Are we using words like woke to create understanding, or are they tearing us apart? This episode dives into the heart of listening, learning, and engaging in meaningful conversations. If you’re ready to see the bigger picture and rethink the power of language, this is the podcast for you.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
Greetings and good day um podcasters perch team.
Speaker 2:Perchazoids, I know Perchlings.
Speaker 1:It's our first podcast after the new year, and the new year has come in. What is it saying? Like a lion.
Speaker 2:Well, you did your spiel last week in my absence, right? Well, when I was on my concert tour.
Speaker 1:That was yeah, so you kind of did a my absence right Well, when I was on my concert tour.
Speaker 2:That was yeah, so you kind of did a river thing right. It wasn't.
Speaker 1:That wasn't a perch moment. It was cool, though. I liked that. It was nice. Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:It brought me some good zen. I thought it was nice. If you haven't seen it, go see it.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, babe, but the 2025 has started off, came in like a lion.
Speaker 2:Like a lion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in every which way. So, speaking of that note, remember that when we get into this podcast topic. The topic today is the hijacking of woke.
Speaker 1:And other assorted tales, the hijacking of woke. I literally need to pray about it and meditate. I've been wanting to talk about this and it's one of those things where the saying is take the emotion out of it. It's hard to take the emotion out of it when the meaning is so deep and you're deeply connected to it. So pray for me, I'm going to do my best to take the emotion out of it, deeply connected to it. So pray for me, I'm going to do my best to take the emotion out of it. But what I won't do is not be who I am and speak from my heart. And they're only my views, and that's the whole purpose of Perch. We all see things from a different perspective, so this is just my perspective and Toby's perspective.
Speaker 2:So, as we've shared in the past I mean, we try not to dodge any topics and so there are a lot of topics that there's quite a prevailing difference of opinion around. So I would say that I came loaded for bear, but I'm sure some bear would be offended and want to find a safe cave, so I'm going to avoid using that expression.
Speaker 1:You came loaded for bear. You came loaded for bear, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, but I don't want to offend any bears and I don't want them to have to go find a safe cave. So I'm going to just say I came prepared to talk about what's going to go on today. So I asked you to slow down so I can catch that.
Speaker 1:But I got a feeling that one's just going to have to pass me by. Do you know the expression loaded for bear? No, babe, ah, okay, that's okay, don't need to know it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, maybe it's my people. Loaded for bear means ready for action.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that what that means? Why loaded for bear, hey?
Speaker 2:you're going to have to talk to the bear about that. I don't know why, but it's an expression.
Speaker 1:Phil, did you know that one? Why so many expressions? Okay, phil knew that expression.
Speaker 2:I'm sure your people have your own expression for ready to go.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of my people and their expression, let's get to woke. Okay, look at this segue Whoa, what a segue.
Speaker 2:You would have thought we planned that Stop it Before we get into it.
Speaker 1:I really want to start off, to go back to the tried and true, and we're going to discuss oh, is this our friends, the dictionary friends?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Smith and Wesson, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Merriam-Webster. I was close? Not at all. But anyway, before you get into it, I want to really quickly have a conversation about Merriam-Webster.
Speaker 2:You are shaking your finger there.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just expressing.
Speaker 2:Because I think at the heart of this is— we decided they were dudes, didn't we?
Speaker 1:Can you focus? Okay, I'm sorry, oh my God.
Speaker 2:Somebody just said to me that you know, thank God you're on this podcast because I suffer from ADD. Do you think I suffer from ADD? Look at you who are? You talking to I don't know. Oh my God, Don't make me do it.
Speaker 1:Jesus, take the wheel. Mer, let me take the wheel. We're not going to do this, we've got to take you.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:This is a serious topic, it is.
Speaker 2:And we're going to nail it.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry I'm back. Okay, sorry, I have to live with him. Honestly, I do Pray for me. Pray for me. Okay, sorry, I have to live with him.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I do Pray for me, pray for me. We're going to start a GoFundMe.
Speaker 1:Did you get it out? I think so. I think I'm good for now. At the heart of this is Merriam-Webster Because, just a little context, merriam-webster has been the quintessential research reference point for us the dictionary for 20 years. For 20 years we have depended on Merriam-Webster and he's never let us down.
Speaker 1:And how they define words. Because we because when we make up words, we'll say what. What is it? Is that the dictionary definition for it. So stay with me. Meron webster wrote stay woke. What is the expression? It says and this is directly verbatim from Merriam-Webster the new sense of woke is gaining popularity. What to know? Woke is now defined in the dictionary as aware of, actively attentive to important facts and issues, especially issues of racial and social justice, and identified as US slang and the origin in African-American English, and gained more widespread usage beginning 2014 as part of Black Lives Matter movement. Again, remember, this is Merriam-Webster. By the end of that same decade, it was also being applied by some as a general pejorative for anyone who appears to be politically left-leaning, and for those of you who don't know what a pejorative is, it's to belittle the importance or value of someone or something to speak slightly about.
Speaker 2:Talk about general yes, so now I'm going to put my foot in it.
Speaker 1:Woke has become a grievance garbage, can.
Speaker 2:Anybody that has a problem with anything now throws it under the guise of being woke. And they've really, to your point and to the name of today's topic, they've really hijacked the, the derivation of woke, because I think you're going to talk about where woke really started. It started with with the black community right, and woke, by definition, means be awake, be be aware, be aware of what's going on, be aware of your surroundings, be aware of how you're being treated and and inequities and things like that. And now everybody, everybody's used it, as I said, as a grievance garbage, can? I don't like what you just said, so therefore I'm going to complain. I don't like the color of this wall, so therefore I'm going to complain. I don't like the speaker that's at my campus, so therefore I'm going to be disruptive. So it's gotten hijacked, it's lost its luster, because the more people it tries to appeal to, the less broadband support, because other people push back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I thank you for that. I really want to give a specific context, specific. I really want to be specific because it's easy to say well, it came from the African-American community and it was hijacked. I think if people understood the roots of why it came and the necessity for it, I really want you to think about it the next time you try to use it and try to weaponize it. So let's just speak in factual terms, and this is according to the Britannica. It says the origins of woke.
Speaker 1:It started back to give context, sundown towns. So I'm going to explain to you what a sundown town is. For those that you don't know, most sundown towns arose between 1890, after the Reconstruction era, and in 1986, after the Reconstruction era ended. In 1986, when the Fair Housing Act, which prohibited racial discrimination for sale, rental and financing or advertising of housing. Sundown towns conceded with a period in which black Americans lost the right that had been gained immediately following the American Civil War between 1861 and 1865. The term sundown town originated. Numerous signs that was posted and limited such towns, warning African Americans do not let the sun go down on you.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a curfew, right, yes, but why is this important, say, tresha? What does that have to do with woke? Thank you for asking. Some of you know the context.
Speaker 1:The Green Book Green Book, I think won an Oscar, I forgot for which category, but that's the history of a Green Book was created so black people that back then, when segregation was in the South, green book would give you a place. If you need a hotel, a place that was friendly to say you can, you can stay here, places to go to eat. So when you are traveling in this vast country we call America, you still, even after movements, there's places that still did not allow black people to live, sleep or eat. So now, what does that have to do with woke? So the purpose? Because of that, they had to sleep in a car.
Speaker 1:So we all have done road trips and we know what it feels like, and most of the time when you do a long road trip, you typically break up the day Right. You say, hey, we're going to go so far and then we're going to stay overnight. That was a luxury that black people didn't have by then, so they would sleep in a car. So the whole point of sleeping in a car is saying stay woke because you need to get out of certain towns by a certain time. Woke because you need to get out of certain towns by a certain time.
Speaker 2:So for all of you who didn't know that, that's where that term came from.
Speaker 1:It is. It was like stay woke, be alert, pay attention, know your surroundings and know when to get out and where, where not, where to stay and where not to stay.
Speaker 1:Don't let the sun down catch you. Now, even for African-Americans it changed over times where when it was permissible to stay in the South, they still knew those pockets they had to stay alert to. That came up north. Even in the north there were certain places, they will say. I grew up on the west side of Chicago, in the inner city, and factually at the time in Chicago they called them Bidox where the train were, mexicans were on one side, blacks on one side, don't cross. So it's like know when you are on the wrong side of the tracks. So that didn't change decades after decades. So just wanted to give you a little origin.
Speaker 2:But that's a perfect instance, because here is a term that was used to specifically deal with a racial issue or a racial awareness and then, over the course of time, it was changed, it was altered, it was perverted and it became a battle cry for simply everybody and, quite frankly obviously not being black, I would be somewhat offended if I was a black person Wait a minute. You've completely you know Whitewashed, exactly, you've completely hijacked this terminology that we've created for us to maintain. You know what we believe is very important and, as I said before, you've got all sorts of other things being thrown into this bucket and what was considered before a very legitimate and well understood concept is now one where people get very offended by it. Now you see everybody talking about cancel culture and the woke and the safe space and all that kind of stuff which never had any place in woke before.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:So then the question becomes well, tricia, you literally went back to the 1800s and then you went through. You know, the civil rights movement. Why is that a question now? Why is this an issue now? So when you do research, it says what reunited the topic and came in. What happened is 2014. So I literally went through and I'm not going to give you all the details. It's out there, you can Google it.
Speaker 1:But any time that there is a movement and we Shall Overcome was the anthem. So when music started to take place in 2014, people like Erykah Badu she did a song and one of her songs she mentioned, you know, stay Woke and then Childish Gambino and he referenced Stay Woke don't let them catch you sleeping. So then the young people became a battle cry during the movement in 2014 when Black Lives Matter. So that's why they referenced it. But I want to really set the ground and say, okay, we've been having issues specifically, why 2014.? Quick timeline for people February 26th was the anniversary of Trayvon Martin death. July 17th. Eric Garner death. August 9th. Michael Brown death. August 19th was the National Guard was deployed to Ferguson. Tamir Rice death. November 24th. No verdict for Darren Wilson. December 3rd. No indictment for Eric Garner's case December 13th the million march protests on.
Speaker 1:Washington. So I think sometimes, you know, I know visionary, vision is history. I think sometimes the world is turning so fast and so much is going on we don't realize. When you have events like that, one after another, it creates this. What's the word for just this environment?
Speaker 2:for things like that.
Speaker 1:So you got a push of all of these things happen at one time in a country. So what happened in that is it was that battle cry for you to know and don't look away, be alert, pay attention. This is America, this is where we are now, and a lot of people want to say enough already. So you have one side saying too much is going on, don't look away. This is what we've become. Stay woke, pay attention and remember. At that time we were also discovering a lot of America's forgotten history, the forgotten history of where people were talking about Tulsa. This happened in America A lot of the things that were left out of our history books. All of this conversation was in an ether and you have people that say I'm no longer looking away, and you have people saying enough already, it's too much. And that's where attention came.
Speaker 2:But what tended to happen and I think why woke in general, in my opinion, has become just a dying, a dead approach. There are really two things. One of them is, I think, with what's going on with the economy and inflation and unemployment, people are like I don't have time to worry about woke anymore, so I think we're going to see it lose some of its power. But the other thing is, the more things you pile into it, it's kind of like a bill before Congress. If it's just to fix the roads, you can get a lot of people behind that. But if it's to fix the roads and to build a stadium, then you lose a couple people. If it's a build the roads, fix a stadium and to build the child care center, you're going to lose some people.
Speaker 2:And by diluting a concept which was very pure in its in its creation and its inception by adding you know, uh, whether you, whether you care for them or not, but the me too movement, by by adding you know, equal rights, you know, or women power, or the rights of trans, and all of those are perfectly legitimate movements and should all have their own legs. But they all kind of looked and said, wow, here's a word, woke. It's already got some good traction. Let's just throw our stuff into the woke bucket and see how it goes, and that's what's created such a visceral response from mostly the right, although we'll talk a little bit later that the left hasn't gotten the full right to everything that's woke. There are some things that the right does that are equally woke.
Speaker 1:So let me dissect that for a minute, because therein lies the issue for me, and I'll get into the heart of my stance, which I haven't heard anyone say yet and I wish they would. When you say they, they typically defines a group. Who are they? Because what I did not hear and what no one could say you heard is the people that they're accusing of being woke, using it in those terms, so meaning when it came in, because now they're saying you know it's, it's a anti-woke, is a leftist movement, and we're going to get to that.
Speaker 1:I didn't define it, that's how it's defined but it's the left that's saying, some of the left that's saying, you know, and using a word and weaponizing and taking everything that comes up and attaching it to woke. And that's my issue.
Speaker 2:Woke has become a lack of tolerance. Woke equals no tolerance.
Speaker 1:This is me, this is not Toby's opinion. Woke is cowardice, because what woke does is remove you from addressing specifically who you have an issue with, because it's easy for me to say, instead of saying Toby, you know you really get on my nerve, but there are your people right.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know when, something like that. That's why I said woke is an absence of tolerance. So I've now decided that woke is this, is this is this card that I can play on the hand that says I'm not comfortable with that, you need to be shut down, you need to shut up, you need to be gone. So when a speaker goes to a campus and I don't agree with their opinion, nope, nope, I'm not going to listen to it.
Speaker 1:I don't need to because I'm woke now, which means that I don't have to tolerate other ideas that I don't want to hear, but here, even addressing specifically the scenario that you've set, that is, on a person who's calling it woke, it is always on a person who chooses to put that in a woke umbrella, because it's the opposite of woke. You can take it definition, because we're going to either have to throw Merritt Webster out and just all get to free ball this and decide and give word power. Whatever word we want to make, we want to give it meaning, either we're going to have definitions and agree that Webster is our point of reference and we don't get to recreate a word, because when it came down to specifically to college campuses college factually is nothing new under the sun you can say it's gotten worse you could say and I'm not gonna say it's always been liberal, my point being my greater point.
Speaker 1:That's your point. My greater point is universities have been the place where we can talk. We could disagree, but we can talk.
Speaker 2:Had been historically. Yes, Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yes, had been historically, but the point being when and if that started to change. Here is the problem about making a will. We used to used to say okay, at Duke campus, this, this professor was met with this hot hostility on the campus of Harvard, on a campus of Yale. Speak to the exact situation, the exact circumstance and address whatever issue you have. It's cowardice to say these woke children no, the kids at Harvard, no, the children at Yale the students speak to it. Address the issue when and there. It happened across the board. And this is why, whenever you say woke, I see you being a coward, because any time that I have an issue, be it in a corporate boardroom or wherever I sit, I question the source, I question. I'm sorry, help me understand, but when you make everything, when you make woke, negative, you define it, you redefine it and say that this is now a negative connotation and a negative and you generalize. You are doing the same thing that you're pushing back on, that you claim that you don't like.
Speaker 2:But don't you wonder when we stopped being so tolerant? When did we suddenly decide that anything that I don't care for has to be eliminated, not anything that we collectively agree to and I know there's so much we can get to? I mean the whole concept of hate speech. I think we should probably have our own podcast just on hate speech, because that in itself is a really interesting topic of conversation. But it used to be that if I didn't like something.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about it a little? I mean, when we're talking about words, can we Muy poquito, muy poquito. Thank you.
Speaker 2:But before we get to that, what I wanted to say was that it used to be if I didn't care for something, whether it was a comedian or musical lyrics or a speaker, I would not go, I would not buy the ticket, I would change the channel. And that was perfectly fine, because what I liked was a me decision and what you liked was a you decision. And now, all of a sudden, if there are lyrics that I don't care for, or a speaker on campus that I don't care for, all of a sudden, it's not good enough for me to just say I'm not interested. I've got to act out, I've got to protest, I've got to be disruptive, I've got to go in and throw paint across the podium. When did this start happening? And we forgot that this world is for everybody, not just you?
Speaker 1:So that's a lot to unpack there. So just to take bite sized pieces of it, I do agree with you. I do agree. It concerns me that we don't leave room for all speech because if you, I want honesty. If you, I want honesty. If you don't like Jews, if you don't like gays, if you don't like black, I don't think the solution is to not hear that. When people tell you who they are, believe them. Let people show you who they are and you believe them and you respond in kind. Don't ask for masks. We literally had the KKK. The KKK hid behind sheets and we had no idea if this person was our co-worker, our neighbor. The sheets are off.
Speaker 1:I don't want the sheets back and I think that's what we failed to realize. It's uncomfortable. I don't like it. I don't like hearing when you intolerant to women or gays or Jews or blacks or anything. I can't stand it. But I always want to live in truth. People, you can't have it both ways, even if we're going to live in truth and be honest and then judge people according to that. If you don't like it, don't buy their music, don't buy their books, don't support them.
Speaker 1:If they get to the point where they violent or whatever, then they should be punished to the fullest end of the law. On the other side of that spectrum, protest is our constitutional right Peaceful protest. Don't judge people for protesting. Don't come out and belittle them and put them down. You have the right not to agree with what they stand for, but either we're all going to stand or nobody stands. We don't get to pick and choose. We don't. Either we're going to be a democracy or we're not going to be a democracy, and so I think it's important for all and we're going to have to get away from sides. And it's hard because it's become simple to say well, you're just a liberal, or you're just a Republican, or you're independent meaning ie, you can't make up your mind. You know I was like they don't even want people to have an independent thought anymore.
Speaker 2:So many of these things are just, and I think there's a podcast that's called like Uncomfortable Conversations or something isn't there, and these are a lot of these are really uncomfortable conversations.
Speaker 1:Because the truth hurts.
Speaker 2:Well, because and it's sometimes hard to reconcile, I mean, from generation to generation we have different values or we perceive things in a different way. So it's really tough to have a conversation, you know, with our kids. Sometimes it's hard, because sometimes they speak a different language or they value things differently, or their idea of leisure and your idea of leisure, so it's all kind of uncomfortable conversations. But when it gets then to a larger sense, a larger scale whether that's political with our political booth, or what's going on in Ukraine versus Russia, or what's going on in Israel versus Hamas, all of those are unbelievably difficult conversations and the answer I don't think in my mind is to just deny that the other side exists or to just dig in so violently that you can't understand that there are always two sides to every story.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to oversimplify this and call myself out before I make this statement, and I'm doing it just for context purposes, because I've been challenged on me, my desire to live in the truth, and I get a lot of pushback because people want to. When you have a belief system, they want to push you to show a chink in your armor, you know per se. So, like Tricia, you really want to hear the truth, like I really want to hear the truth. Do you really want you know the person told me to tell you that you fat? I'm just, do you, would you? And I'm using that to make an example when you care for people and you love people, one, you owe them a truth, but you owe that truth from a place of love and kindness. So, meaning, if you got to a point where Something about the person is unappealing or whatever it is and I know again, I said I'm oversimplifying this for a reason it is nothing wrong with saying, you know, and people do it in different ways.
Speaker 1:Some people are like, oh, let's work out together, or whatever the case may be. Or you know what? I see you and I see you as unhealthy and I really want you to live a long time. That is the truth and it may not hurt you, but why? Why? And this is just me and I know I'm different and I'm okay with being out there on the island by myself. If you don't like me, don't act like you do. I'm okay with you being because I people know me, I've told people you know what. It's no offense you and I just don't set horses. I suggest you go your way, I go my. I'm not trying to tear your spirit down, I'm not trying to belittle you. So when we have a problem with people going back to the woke, when you have a problem with an issue or a group, whatever generalization you are making, have the courage enough to address that specific person, specific group, because we used to do it and I don't know why we feel like we have to institutionalize feelings.
Speaker 2:You know, we institutionalize these things to the point of like.
Speaker 1:I think we would all agree Institutionalize feelings. I'll explain what I mean by that.
Speaker 2:So we all, I think, would agree that when we're hiring somebody, we want to hire the most capable qualified person we can find.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting up for this one, and we do, and it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2:Most people I can't speak for everybody, but most people are looking for the most capable qualified person they can find, but somehow we've institutionalized a program that somehow tries to force people into behavior that they're not comfortable with. I'm a firm believer and I've said this to treat. If I could get asked for one thing to happen in the DEI slash equality movement, it would be that no longer applications had names on them or pictures of the people on them, because it doesn't matter, because what you're trying to do is pick the most qualified person. So if I'm trying to pick the most qualified programmer, I want to know what programming language is in a number of years. I'm trying to hire a manager. What has he done before? Has he done a P&L before? Has he done budgeting, or she done budgeting or they done budgeting, it doesn't matter. So ultimately that decision gets made.
Speaker 2:But the moment you introduce the notion of diversity, all of a sudden you've got this voice in the back of some people's heads that say oh, that means I have to pick the best equipped, fill-in-the-blank minority and that's. I don't think what the movement was created to do is to create it to give everybody equal opportunity. But again, we may do our own podcast on DEI. The last thing I wanted to say really quickly was we talked about corporations and their lack of personality, or all of that stuff, when woke got started. All of a sudden all of these companies jumped on the woke bandwagon. What was bud light?
Speaker 1:oh, every time you say woke, I just cringe.
Speaker 2:But in any case, go go now with dylan mulvaney, or you know, and we saw what happened with bud light in april of 2023. People boycotted bud light. They went from the number one selling beer in the country to, I think, number six, because people pushed back and said we don't want this. Your values shoved down our throat. And it's okay to be inclusive and it's okay to have ideas, but my ideas are mine, your ideas are yours. I respect yours, you respect mine. Cool, we move on. You have a question?
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Question over here.
Speaker 1:Over here, hand raised Question. Oh God, help me, give me the words to move my ego out the way and say this Step.
Speaker 2:Donner.
Speaker 1:It is fascinating. The power of the human ego is fascinating to me because you literally just spoke for the intentions of a corporation. That's the problem, Because what people didn't consider, the people that claim them to be woke business humans were created to evolve. The central base of a business is to how can we evolve, revolutionize?
Speaker 1:That's a reason for a company Just hear me out and let me make my statement Every majority of any company majority because some companies don't get me wrong are small. They want to stay small. I like my little shop on the corner. I don care to grow. Much respect and love to you, but ideally most company, especially corporations at their core, want to grow. How can we get bigger, stronger, faster, evolve, adjust, be nimble? That's what companies do, and being that does not. There is no way to do that, one way to do that, meaning that's across the board. So as you grow, you have an understanding, you have enlightenment, you realize where your shortcomings are. We tried it this way, but that didn't work for us. So the assumption is and not saying that some didn't do it because it was trendy and the thing that do?
Speaker 2:I'm not. That would be my opinion, but what?
Speaker 1:you can't do what you cannot do. You cannot speak for every corporation's intentions.
Speaker 2:No one can Toby Well all I'm saying is large companies jumped on the wave Because, as you said, a corporation's role is to survive and thrive. So the idea is, they said, here's a movement, it's gaining traction, we're going to jump on board. I'm going to meet you and then, when it crashed into the rocks and caused them huge losses of money. They all bailed on it.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to meet you halfway, Okay. Corporations historically jump on bandwagons and not a peep is heard. So if we're going to be more lean, driven whatever their process is, whenever in business someone finds another way to do it. Now we're lean, we're AI driven, we're this driven. Whatever it is that creates better, more efficient, nimble companies is what they do.
Speaker 2:Until it isn't, until it doesn't work. Can I just?
Speaker 1:finish my point.
Speaker 2:No, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:No, what didn't? Here's the fact. The fact is and this is the arrogance the arrogance is that this was something that was trendy and because you saw what happened to Anheuser-Busch and because you saw what happened to a handful of corporations, that's fact. That's the sample size. So it's hundreds of thousands of businesses in America alone. So your sample size is five. And just hear me out and I'm going to make my point. And so you took that and say, oh, they tried it and it didn't work. I hate to tell you this and be the bearer of bad news, but before this anti-woke people came along, dei was already in existence, and DEI is still in existence in a lot of organizations. And not only is it in existence. Here's a fact. You can check the data and look for the receipts. Companies who are DEI drivendriven perform and do better. That's just a fact.
Speaker 2:Okay, all I was going to say is the concept of DEI is fantastic. The execution of it is appalling.
Speaker 1:But here is why even your statement in there is appalling.
Speaker 2:There is no model for DEI, so yet again, so how do you institutionalize it and have a manager of DEI if you're saying it's not institutionalized, it just came up yesterday I shouldn't say yesterday, because you may see this podcast a week from now, two weeks from now, a month ago.
Speaker 1:But let's talk about the Senate hearings, and I'm only bringing that up for one reason In the Senate hearings they talked about and this is the one with what's his pronounced, his name Pete. Hexeth Hexeth. I struggle with Hexeth Pete Hexeth, and if I say your name wrong, forgive me.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 1:Pete, charge it to my head and not my heart, but, pete Hexeth, I try to get people's names right. The point it came up was the stance that he was making on women and how women weren't efficient in the Army. And when asked just to name specific, where did this happen? Where did you see women when it come down to training them, using a special set of rules for the way you train women in the service and where they train, he couldn't name one. And that's what. A lot of times, that's what we're hearing. Set of rules for the way you train women in the service and where they train it, he would. He couldn't name one. And that's what. A lot of times, that's what we're hearing.
Speaker 1:It's this ideology we hear. With women pilots. They said well, they have a different set of rules for women becoming pilots than than men of like. Show us where it's documented and this is what. What's wrong with the internet and misinformation, because you throw things out there. And what he did say and I'm going to give him credit for it he goes. Well, he used the term and I may get it wrong, but his terminology was like well, it may not have been written but applied, so you can't name it because it doesn't exist. You assume that the only way women got there is because we had to lower the bar for them to get over. It's offensive to women, and here's the problem with DEI. Dei has been weaponized, just like well.
Speaker 1:DEI literally means diversity, equity and inclusion. And what people don't realize, who are anti. I know women who are anti-DEI and I'm like you clearly must not know the definition of DEI. Dei is saying don't look at me and see a woman, see a capable person.
Speaker 2:Don't look at me. See these skill sets, see these capabilities.
Speaker 1:Exactly what you said to do. Strip down all of that and see me. And then also, what DEI means is have diversity of thought in corporations, meaning everybody can't be, you know, white collar.
Speaker 2:They can all lead. Everybody can't be an alpha personality. Everybody can't be an extrovert. Everybody can't be a take charge kind of person.
Speaker 1:And I know even in particular I know being in business on the white collar side. I've been in rooms where people are made fun of who are white because they come from a rural background and they speak with an accent. It was like, no, we don't do that. We need someone who's you know, from you know the inner city. We need someone because we're touching all of these markets and all these places and we need to be able to address their need.
Speaker 2:People, that is DEI and that's why I say the concept is pure and it's perfect. It's just when it touches us it gets screwed up, and then we try to institutionalize it.
Speaker 1:Which us are we touching now?
Speaker 2:Once we try to make it into a position, a movement, a role, with job descriptions and saying, okay, now you've got to go hire 10% Hispanic and 50% Whoa, whoa, whoa. What ever happened to hiring the best people possible? And a quick shout out to our friends in California. Here I'm going to talk about what's going on in LA with the horrific fires. But you know it's come to a head with fire department in Los Angeles where they've said that you know, when you want to find a firefighter, you want somebody who has physical attributes.
Speaker 2:Okay, and unfortunately for the most part there are obviously exceptions, but for the most part men tend to be stronger. They're not smarter, they're not more nimble, they're not more agile, but they tend to be stronger. They're not smarter, they're not more nimble, they're not more agile, but they tend to be stronger. So one of the things that came out and they said if you can't carry a 150-pound man or woman or whatever, then you should not be qualified to be in the fire department, unless you want to be a dispatcher or have a job that doesn't do that. So this is where DEI can get in the way, the institutionalization of DEI, because they say well, wait a minute, if you're a man, you have to carry 150 pounds. Maybe you're a woman, only 120. Well, that doesn't help the poor person who's in a fire, who's 145 pounds, to know that they weren't able to be saved because there was a DEI initiative underway.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not going down that road. Yes, probably a good idea, because now I'm going down that road.
Speaker 2:You told me it was probably a good idea. She poked her. Yes, you poked me, there we go. You poked me, there we go.
Speaker 1:And I fell for it Because it but if that woman has the same physical capabilities, the audacity of people. Let's be real. What is the common joke about police officers? Love you, but what's the common joke? They eat donuts and they're out of shape.
Speaker 2:Don't know anything about that. That was for her. Stop it. Send your hate mail over here.
Speaker 1:Stop it.
Speaker 2:We love you.
Speaker 1:But my point being it's petty and trivial, but my point being it's petty and trivial meaning these are the things we nitpick apart to separate us and say see, the woman is a weaker vessel, so she can't do this Physically sure?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think unless and the military is very much the same way. There are many roles within the military that women perform better than men. In fact, I would take a page out of the automotive industry just a quick detour here. General Motors years ago did a study and said here's a job, who is better capable of doing it? Based on their aptitude, skill set, patience and all of that. And in many cases they'd say that's a job better done by a woman because of the attribute and skill set Doesn't mean it was all women, but heavily done by women Apathy, patience, decision making.
Speaker 2:Here's one that takes brute force and bloody ignorance. I just want a Neanderthal to go in there and hammer this nail into this board. A man is better qualified for that. So you'll hear people like a Jordan Peterson talk to that fact that equality doesn't mean equality, that we're going to force as many people to hammer nails in that are women and men and as many men and women that are firefighters. We need to understand that there are physical differences between us that we can't legislate out.
Speaker 1:Here is the hole in your scenario. We're talking about woke and now we're getting to the anti-woke, because that's at the core of the anti-woke movement. When you look at the definition, at the core of the anti-woke is and I think his name is Paul Graham. You can look it up and I'll attach links to this video and you can research all of this. I haven't it up and I'll attach links to this video and you can research all of this. A high heaven. But in a, in a op-ed or write-up that he did, he he mentioned the fact and and I and I will meet him half the way that the reason why a lot of the pushback against the woke movement is and he used the scenario of discrimination. He goes most people can honestly say they know it's discrimination. In America you really won't get a debate Like of course there's racism, you know in America. Of course his theory and speaking on behalf of the anti-woke, if one can, I'm not, but he was, he was His theory was the problem with it is that the woke, they pretty much stay in a space of the minuscule meaning.
Speaker 1:They take the yeah and they make it bigger, saying well, we know racism exists, but it's not as bad as they say it is. And we know there's police brutality, but not at the rate that they say it is. And we know companies discriminate, but it's not at the rate that they say it is. And so I'm going to reverse that. I'm like it's reverse psychology. So that's what the anti-woke is doing to the rest. So you're making a statement saying well, we know that in some places maybe some women physically aren't at the same, but we're talking about a minuscule subset and that's where we're dwelling.
Speaker 2:So you're throwing a baby out you literally are doing.
Speaker 1:I'm saying to the end, not you.
Speaker 2:No, no, hear me out.
Speaker 1:The anti-woke movement is literally doing exactly what they're accusing a woke of doing. They're taking a small subset and they, and, and when it came down to books, they did it. They started banning books, knowing that these books weren't in children's school. They knew these books were, even at the term that they had issues, were taught on college levels. They were never. Not one case did you find they were taught in elementary. They just weren weren't. And I said see what they're teaching your kids in college. They know they're fully grown adults by then. See what they're teaching. Because they took a small subset of something to apply it to stoke fear, and that's all I'm talking about. And the same thing with women. They did the same thing with the women. These women are pilots. These women are doing these things thing with the women. These women are pilots. These women are doing these things. And some of these women are just badass and you won't cop to it. And they can do it and have done it.
Speaker 2:Well, I find one little case. We need to to your point, we do need to cop to it, but we also need to be real about what the job descriptions are. To be successful in a particular job, you know, I could never be a brain surgeon for a number of reasons. But could I be a pilot? Probably not. And we need to look at each of these and say there are intellectual skills that are required and in many cases, there are physical skills that are required. No, would you not agree to that?
Speaker 1:Here is what? Because it's laughable to me. Because this is why it's laughable Every job has a job description. Some of them may be half thought out by some HR teams, but hear me out Every job has a job description.
Speaker 1:It is demeaning, degrading and belittling when people say that they were a DEI hire. When people say that they were a DEI hire, the only way you can even get close to proving that is if and I'm going to make a point that counters this. One is if the job was you needed a master's degree and they didn't have one, or you needed this certain skill set and they didn't have it. And when you look at their resume, especially specifically some of these people who've been bought up as another DEI they even said the vice president of America would be a DEI hire. I'm like, look at her resume. You know how do you say that when you come behind a man that was never even in politics to begin with, the math isn't mathing. So when you try to make people DEI hires just because they're a woman or because they're black or because they're gay, if they resume meester qualifications, you don't get to say that, just because how important is it that a fireman can carry 150 pounds?
Speaker 1:We still on a fireman? I am right on there. How important is that On a scale of one to 10, how important is it that a fireman can carry 150 pounds?
Speaker 2:We still on a fireman. I am right on there. How important is that? On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is it that a fireman can carry 150 pounds In?
Speaker 1:all fairness, and I'm not trying to do this just to take the opposition. I don't know. I personally know a few firemen, but I don't know if everybody does the same thing. I really don't.
Speaker 2:I don't know if they're like, so I'm doing it, I don't know. Okay, so let's say those that go into the fire, not necessarily those that are dispatchers or those that are for the actual firefighters, who are on the front line. How important is it that they?
Speaker 1:can carry 150 pounds.
Speaker 2:If they have to do it and it's part of a job description, then they have to do it Okay and if I have a woman that applied, that can carry 140 pounds if she qualified.
Speaker 1:If it says 150 pounds, but again the assumption is, first of all, again, I don't know if that's happening, I don't know if the bar's been lowered and I don't know and again, this is what I don't know is every fireman that's out? If every fireman that's on a fire truck, does he carry the ladder? I don't know enough about the fire department to say so.
Speaker 2:If a gay trans applies and they can carry 175 pounds. Are they qualified? Yes, absolutely. If a man, a white male, can carry 140 pounds, is he qualified?
Speaker 1:No, but my point being this is not a difficult equation here for trans Right. It's not.
Speaker 2:So why do we have to institutionalize a program and put a title around it called DEI? I say here's what you need to do to qualify. Do you qualify yes, do you qualify no? Not different goalposts for different types of people. Let's stop this idea of putting people into buckets and say, oh, unless it's a Thursday and you're queer unless it's a Tuesday and you're a straight male ridiculous?
Speaker 1:No, it's not ridiculous, because here is the narrative. Why was that necessary to begin with? It wasn't, so you are telling me that it was never necessary for you to take a look around your room and only see everybody that looked like you. But you hit it before I want diversity of thought.
Speaker 2:I want diversity of thought, I want diversity of capabilities, but I don't need you to be an Asian American or a Mexican. However, what they do do is they, culturally, will bring different diversity into an equation which I find very important.
Speaker 2:You and I know that you and I will have conversations and you'll bring viewpoints to me that I would have never known because of a different cultural background. The fact that you're black to me and I know you hate when people say I don't see color, but the fact that you're black is less relevant than the experience you bring.
Speaker 1:Why do I hate and I don't like the word hate- but, I, totally dislike it. Why do I so? When you throw it out there, please give context. I dislike it because we all should see color. Color is a beautiful thing. When you get dressed, you get bored, you look in your closet and be like everything I have is black and white. I need a little color. Color is a beautiful thing. See color, embrace color, love color.
Speaker 2:But I'm going to hire you because of what you're capable of doing and the experiences that you bring, and your physical and intellectual attributes and your social well, you're black, I'm not gonna hire you because you're Hispanic, I'm not gonna hire you because you're a white, but I'm gonna bring I want you to bring that wealth of knowledge to our organization so let me just put some some, some facts and you can research them and look them up.
Speaker 1:There's a thing called science and biology. People naturally gravitate to like and that's just a given. So when you have a corporation, people gravitate to what they're familiar with. That's just human condition. Gravitate to what they're familiar with, that's just human condition. So because that's in a human condition, we do need things like DEI and other things to say.
Speaker 1:You have the natural proclivity to share spaces with people that look like you, of certain age, and that's why when you looked around in corporate America, corporate America was predominantly all white, male and older. And then corporate America decided these guys are a little too old, which that's a whole nother conversation, and as ageism, we need younger, fresher, we need a different look. So they went young, white. So when you say that there was intentionality put into that and we didn't say just let me finish when when we saw it and we all saw it, and if you didn't see it you weren't in corporate America there's no way you've been in corporate America for over 20 years and didn't see the, the age, ism and the discrimination.
Speaker 1:It was right there before our eyes and as a collective body we said f all nothing, because it was like it went from young to old. And that means, if you didn't, you know, my husband no longer good for you, but my son is. And so we were like okay. But the minute we said okay, now you literally just change and you went from young to old. What about giving women a shot? What about giving people of other ethnicities? Let's stop just gravitating to this and look at everybody. And so that was intentionality behind DEI.
Speaker 2:And so then it does the intentionality, but it was there all the time.
Speaker 1:And we didn't call it out until we start to became and it went from women and we were okay with that because women went back into white workforce. This is not me talking, this is me quoting data and stats and it's all out there. For anyone to disagree, you can just look it up for yourself. When the change women had to give back, white women were higher, at a higher rate. That's just a fact. And it was like okay now, because you're more like my sister, you know I can see my sister, I have some connection to you and they'd be like but what about people you don't have a connection to Because they're not in your communities, they're not in your church? So how about looking beyond the pale?
Speaker 2:And that's all it was. I just don't think that we can societally institutionalize good business practice Because ultimately, at the end of the day, good business practice will predicate that. You said it before that historically we had white men who ran most businesses and it's not going to change overnight. Even if you try to legislate, it's not going to change overnight. And that's part of the reason that I think people are getting upset is that they're saying you can't fix a wrong with a wrong.
Speaker 1:You can't do that. Let me say two things real quick. But we're talking about being woke though.
Speaker 2:Okay. So there's an excellent article I'm going to ask Tree to put on our website around this. That was done by helpfulprofessorcom and on our website around this. That was done by helpfulprofessorcom and I really think it's a balanced assessment. It really goes on both sides of the equation. It says this is what the woke feeling is, this is what the people who are against it are.
Speaker 2:But there's two things I want to call out where I'm saying that you can't institutionalize behavior. One of them is in Canada there's a Bill C-16. It's a bill that forces people to use trans people's preferred pronouns and if they don't, they're in violation of human rights code. Okay, you're institutionalizing how I refer to you. So if Tree said to me, from now on, my name is Dave, I could say nice to meet you, dave. And if I don't use her proper pronouns, I could be in violation of a human rights code. So are we institutionalizing how I behave Now if I don't want to call her he? You know she may not or he may not like me, but that's that's the decision that we make entre nous, if you will.
Speaker 2:The other one that bothers me is that there's this thing called a day of absence. Have you heard about this. It's a college that asks white students to stay home for one day a year to discuss and think about their privilege. Okay, now this is institutionalized in colleges. So again, we're institutionalizing an opinion that each person should keep internally. And we've talked about privilege, and we should have a conversation about privilege as well. I believe that there are things that I am privileged about. Does that mean I want to be hit over the head with it, with a baseball bat, once every 365 days? Hell, no. So why do we institutionalize common sense when we should leave it to be done with common sense? And I really the last thing I'm going to say, I'm DEI and all this Because common sense isn't always common.
Speaker 1:Well then, those people will suffer.
Speaker 2:Those people can suffer the consequences. But the moment we try to institutionalize a misstep with another misstep, it's fraught with disaster.
Speaker 1:A misstep with another misstep.
Speaker 2:If we have a business model right now which is predominantly white men, by outlawing or creating quota systems to get rid of white men, all you're going to do is create anger on one side, and you're necessarily not going to get the best people. Instead of saying let's just as I said to begin this, let's just hire the best people possible, get good cultural backgrounds, get good diversity and stop worrying about whether the person is Islamic or Jewish or whatever. And the last thing I'll say about that is to be fair, woke is not just left-leaning.
Speaker 1:Okay, I just quickly wanted to piggyback off that, because your statement was and I just want to make sure if that's the way you want to leave it, we can leave it she's trying to trap me. I'm not trying to trap you at all. I'm not trying to trap you, but your statement is institutionalizing. It was like we want to change the system by getting rid of white men.
Speaker 2:That was the goal. That was the goal of all of these programs was to, like my sweatshirt here, make the world more colorful.
Speaker 1:And who gets to? This is why words matter, because who gets to define? That's what the goal was. You define. So how about the goal was literally in what it said diversity, equity, inclusion.
Speaker 2:That was the intention, but that's not what happened. That's why I'm saying it got hijacked, because all of a sudden it became do we have enough black people?
Speaker 1:do we have enough hispanic people? That's not the idea. Do we have enough? So you have every board room and decided what conversation was had in every board would you deny that? That's what happened yes, I will deny it, because first, of all, I have to deny it because I haven't said it in every boardroom.
Speaker 2:I've only said it in a few. Then why does every application ask you what your race and gender is?
Speaker 1:Why? So? Now, the only thing that they've asked how long has race and gender been on there? Ten years Lies, Five years Lies, 20 minutes. I have been working for over 30 years and I've always been asked what am I, what are you? I'm confused. Now she's confused. They're going to put a box in there called confused. Black, white, hispanic confused, god, god, god love him, god love him.
Speaker 1:But anyway my point being before you make me lose my thought again that is to me, that's the way that it's been taken by some and that was not the intentionality. The intentionality, but that's something in life we have no control over Correct. All of us show up with our own intentions, and how you receive my intentions are on the receiver. That's it. So you are receiving that information, as the whole point of DEI was to cut back on white men and I'm going to receive that in a different light, and the spirit intention which I received DEI is the.
Speaker 1:The point of DEI is to make space at the table for everyone love and not exclude, and I think most people would agree with your intention but if you are the majority and you're predominant in there to, it's going to balance you out, meaning, if you are truly looking at everyone and you are truly looking at the best and brightest, there is no way that the number of white men at the top can stay on top. That's just math.
Speaker 2:And that will evolve out. This isn't a revolutionary movement.
Speaker 1:This happens over the course of time, right, but the fear was when they start seeing a change and seeing diversity, which the numbers are still low.
Speaker 2:It's still low. Are there more black people in college now than there were 10 years ago?
Speaker 1:Depending on what poll you look at. Even as they send, it's going down.
Speaker 2:Is it really?
Speaker 1:But then in all fairness and context the number of going down with Americans in college. So that's a whole. That's another conversation for another day.
Speaker 2:All I'm trying to get at is these things don't happen overnight and you can't legislate. You know people's, what are people's heads? Over the course of time it changes. I said this on one of our podcasts.
Speaker 1:Well, phil said we need to be quiet and wrap up. Oh, okay, the last thing.
Speaker 2:I'll say is my grandfather was more racist than my father was, than I will be, than one of my son will be. Things change over time and if we start to look at this and understand that what we want to do is to get the best people in the room to make the best decisions and we don't have to legislate that, you know, it should be common effing sense that you want the best people in the room.
Speaker 1:If you're going to go fight the fight and I love you and I know that sounds good Well, it's no less idealistic than what you're describing, and I'm going to really go out in the fields with this, because when you say that and I know you have good intentions like I'm less racist than my father was and my child here is the reality though. I'm here today, my child is here today, and so I don't have time to wait, and that's what you're seeing on the evolution of people.
Speaker 2:So you're going to legislate the evolution.
Speaker 1:No, what I'm saying is I just like your point in position. A lot of times, people who aren't in that scenario and aren't the ones who are literally being marginalized and fighting for the seat to get at the table marginalized and fighting for the seat to get at the table.
Speaker 1:It's commonplace for the people who've been at the table to say but it's moving and change happens slowly and it's a big boat and all of these sayings they have about change happen slowly and that's your perspective and you have the right to say that. And I have the right to say fight on. I have to do because, from what I know, you get one chance at this thing called life. So while I'm here, I don't have time for you to wait on you to catch on. I have to keep pushing, I have to keep fighting for change and even in the back of my mind, I know what you say to be a truth, that I don't care how hard you fight, it's evolutionary and it's going to take time.
Speaker 2:You probably know this, but Don Lemon had Samuel L Jackson on one day and Don Lemon asked Samuel L Jackson how do we get rid of racism? What was his answer? I don't know. Stop talking about it, stop talking about it.
Speaker 1:That drives me crazy when people go to one black person, or Candace Owens, this one said that's one person.
Speaker 2:That's one person. Why do we have to continue? Let's move beyond it.
Speaker 1:Toby, you cannot change.
Speaker 2:You can't legislate people's thoughts, you cannot.
Speaker 1:The bottom line is perfect example. We just said it and you admitted to it. Had we took the stance that you said to take, most of America would know about Tulsa today. Yes, that's right have we looked at it and said that was back then.
Speaker 2:Look up Tulsa Black Wall Street. Very interesting.
Speaker 1:Right, but if they took the stance that you say, tate and let's stop talking about race and move beyond, it's still so much of our history and our culture and that's every ethnicity. The Mexicans can say that, the Asians can say it, the Italians can say it on their flight, it was so much left out of the books and then when we start putting them in the books and we start banning books, so no, we're going to have to find a way to keep talking and keep saying it and keep working, because the bottom line is we, the people of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect union. Even your forefathers knew that this was going to be a work in progress, so let's all get to work.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep so before we.
Speaker 2:I think we mentioned it briefly, but our hearts and prayers thoughts to the folks in Los Angeles. As we film this, la is still in pretty tough shape. So our best to the firefighters and everybody who's been affected by this and if you can help in any way, whether you're out there and can let somebody stay in your house or provide some financial help I know that a lot of people are on board and we just want to join that and just share our thoughts and prayers.
Speaker 1:I absolutely do, and I think that's a great point. It even ties into the thing today about being woke At the end of the day. Let's all wake up.
Speaker 1:We are our brother's keeper and hardship knows no color and hardship, knows Absolutely when my brother is down and if we're going to say we're patriotic and we are Americans, when one is down, all are down. So, again, more than hearts and prayers, we need to find out what we can do to help, because one day it's North Carolina, the next day is California and you know that'll be us. So, as we wrap and I know we've done a perch, perk, peak, at the end and it's literally, and I was doing it it was very contrite because I'm not a person that read from a teleprompter and I don't do signs, and it was agonizing for me to look back. I just want to speak to you and say again that's just my position.
Speaker 1:Toby has this position, but I do pray that we get back to having conversations. I do pray that we stop banning everything and agree to disagree and understand. There is nothing wrong with not agreeing. It's nothing. What matters is that I listen, I listen, and so that's all we can do. Even if you're in disagreement, just listen, show up with the spirit of listening. I almost said I'm married to this man. We're not married.
Speaker 2:Y'all ball and chain over here.
Speaker 1:We are not. Oh calm man, we're not married. You're balling Shane over here. We are not. Oh, calm down, we are not married. But I get up every day and these conversations that you hear typically stem from conversations that happen in our home.
Speaker 2:To be honest, we need to learn to disagree without being disagreeable.
Speaker 1:And I tell Toby that all the time and I say you know what?
Speaker 2:And then she makes me sleep on the couch.
Speaker 1:I don't try to agree with him. I just try to hear him out. I don't want him to agree with me when his spirit really doesn't agree. I just need to know you hear me and you care enough to listen. And if you care enough to listen, maybe we'll find a bubble in the middle. Until we meet again, take care.
Speaker 2:Be well.
